EPISODE 61: Better Boundaries w/ Terri Cole

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Show Notes

This week, Anne and Heather are joined by renowned psychotherapist and relationship expert Terri Cole to discus s her new book Boundary Boss, a book all about authentically expressing your preferences, needs, and limits so you can live the happy, healthy life you deserve. For over 20 years, Terri's approach has combined the best of practical psychology and eastern mindfulness practices - making complex psychological concepts accessible, and then actionable so that you can achieve sustainable change - in other words: true transformation. Have a listen!


straught media. Hey, everybody,
our next show is with none other than

Terry Cole. Terry Cole, and
listen. If you are wondering about your

boundaries, if you want to know
what your boundaries are, if you know

that you are crossing your boundaries,
listen to this show, because you're gonna

find out how to keep them,
get them and win with Your v I

p section. Well, welcome.
Terry Cole is a licensed psychotherapist and relationship

and empowerment expert. For more than
twenty years she's combined the best of practical

psychology and eastern mindfulness practices, making
complex psychological concepts accessible and then actionable so

that you can achieve sustainable change in
your life. She's the author of boundary

boss, the essential guide to talk
true, be seen and live free,

which teaches readers how to assert and
maintain healthy boundaries. She developed four steps

to simplify boundary setting, how to
recognize when your boundaries have been violated and

what to do about that, how
to create proactive boundary plans and how to

master conflicts, and so much more, and we're so lucky to have you

here today. We better get listen
and Terry, welcome. Thank you so

much for being with us today.
How are you? I'm great. Thank

you, guys, so much for
having me. I appreciate you. I

have to say I I kind of
went into a world with you, because

once you start listening to what you
do and what you say and how you

propose different issues that we are facing, both men and women, and how

we handle let's start with boundaries and
and you've obviously been a therapist for years.

You've done over three hundred podcasts around
how to get us to be healthier,

more loving human beings to ourselves.
Can we start with where boundary boss

came from? I I think,
uh, it's just what, what a

helpful book that everybody should be purchasing
immediately. And where did that come from?

Where did the idea stem from in
your in your brilliant mind? Thanks,

I would have to say. You
know, what do they say you

you teach what you most need to
learn. So I just was a boundary

freaking disaster in my life. That's
that's the truth. I didn't realize that

so much of my pain and relationships
and my feeling taking advantage of and thinking

other people were entitled. I was
so angry and resentful and I considered myself

like a loving person. So these
there was a cognitive dissonance, we call

it, like this conflict of while
I'm over functioning, overgiving, overdoing and

then mad at the other people for
it. I had no idea that that

meant I had disordered boundaries. And
so really how boundary boss came about is

that through I was a talent agent
for years before I became a psychotherapist.

So I don't need to tell you
that entertainment is not exactly a hot better

mental health. And at that point
in my career I was getting too healthy

for the business to a degree.
Right I was. I'd been in therapy

since I was nineteen. I quit
drinking when I was twenty one and I

got super into self help and wellness
and my I couldn't even believe that I

could just go to therapy and change
my life. I was like, why

isn't everyone doing this? This is
unbelievable, and I was young when I

was doing that. So as my
career kept getting more in the entertainment business,

I was like, Oh my God, this place is a ship show

and I have got to get out
of here. I was becoming too healthy.

In the end of my career I
was, you know, negotiating contracts

or supermodels and celebrities for endorsement deals, basically, and I did not care

about that. I only cared about
getting people into therapy, eating disorder clinics,

drug treatment clinics, a. A
N A Alan on. Like my

whole trip was like how's your mental
wellness? And I was like I need

to get out of here before,
before before I really become a terrible agent.

And so well, you had a
lot of clients, I bet,

who needed all of that help.
Yes, I mean, I can't tell

you how. It was more urgent
to me, though, there mental all

being so, of course I wasn't
as good an agent as I should have

been towards the end because I was
like we cannot ask her to do that.

That is terrible, you know,
and they're like what, you have

to do it, it's a contract. So, anyway, I decided to

go to Grad school and I just
applied to one school. I was living

in New York and I was like
I'm not obviously going to Ohio to go

to Grad School, so I only
I only applied to n y U and

that I got accepted was like,
holy crap, I guess I gotta go,

because you can't get in and not
go. So before we get started,

can you? Because the goal here, the goal here is for everybody

to read the book boundary boss,
but in this time that we have,

for people to really take away some
concrete things that they can apply right now.

So can we start by like defining
what boundaries is, because people might

be wondering what are we talking about
when we talk about boundaries? Yes,

so I want you to think about
boundaries as your own personal rules of engagement.

It's how we let others know what's
okay with us and what's not okay

with us. Your boundary are made
up of your preferences, your limits and

your deal breakers, like your non
negotiables, right, because not all boundaries

are created equally. Some things are
just a preference. They're still important,

but they're not as hardcore as a
deal breaker. Like things are an absolute

no for you. But the problem
comes in a most people don't even know

what their preferences, their limits and
their deal breakers are. But even if

you do know them, you must
then have the capacity to communicate them with

transparency and whenever you so choose,
and I feel like for most people,

that becomes the problem. They may
know it, but they don't know how

to talk about it. Well,
you said transparency, and I want to

I want to take people into one
of the things that I've learned from from

listening to you, which is that
our parental patterns, that things that we

have set up are perhaps the distance
between us and our capacity. We may

know what we what we want and
what we think. We may see that

in another and go, oh,
I'd really like to have her self estem

and be able to stand up for
myself when I don't want beyond that date

or all of the different things that
you have outlined in your book as different

possibilities we get ourselves into. But
can you talk to us about the parental

pattern that starts, the thing that
starts in one of the things I love

about you. You're like, we
don't have to talk or to find about

all that stuff, about what happened. That's kind of a waste of time

and I'd like for you to talk
about that patterning a little bit. Well,

and along those lines, to answer
that you you talked about making a

list of emotions that you were not
allowed to have as a child. That

I found to be really, really
interesting. I think those yes, totally.

What you're talking about, Anne,
is your downloaded boundary blueprint. So

this is in your unconscious mind,
down here in the basement, where we

don't even know that we have a
choice. So what? What influences you?

I want you to think about that
as like an architectural blueprint for a

house that someone else designed a really
long time ago. So what is your

boundary blueprint? It's the way we
think, or we were taught, that

we should interact in the world,
in romantic relationships, in work relationships and

our friendships. So if you were
raised by a maternal impact or, let's

say, who had the disease to
please, who was a people pleaser,

then you learn Oh, to be
a good person, I should do what

other people want me to do,
I should not make anyone mad, I

should not say no. If I'm
kind and giving, then I'm a good

person. But so much of the
time that comes with being self abandoning.

Right, that comes with prioritizing the
wants, needs desires of others over ourselves.

We were all raised to be good
girls, right, to not be

troublemakers, don't be a big male, don't be a drama queen, don't

stare the pot, and that the
way that I was raised and all of

my clients and women and my courses
is basically niceness. Was this like fake

virtue above all other things? Right, it was so important to be perceived

as being nice. But we really
think about it, saying yes when you

really want to say no, is
that like being nice or is that just

mine? Well, you say that
about kindness. We talked about living in

loving kindness here, but you're like
there's a difference between kind and self abandonment,

and it seems that self abandonment and
boundary goes hand in hand. Could

you expand on self abandonment and that
relationship and then we'll get into the emotion.

Then they're the emotional pack that goes
with that. So the self abandonment

piece, I always say that most
of us were raised and praised for being

self abandoning, codependence, right,
just it was like you just want an

a word for for the more that
you could give to others. I mean

I was interviewed by some of the
other day and they were talking about that.

They were a girl scout and one
of the girls scouts creeds, was

always put others above yourself. You're
like nothing, like setting us up to

just never be happy. Thanks,
like a culture around never being happy.

So how it's connected is that is
having a disordered emotional boundary, a disordered

physical boundary, because saying yes when
you want to say no, or acting

like you're the cool girl right,
being like you know me, I'm easy,

breezy, no fuss, no must
never sharing your preferences because you just

want to be like whatever you guys
want is good. That can't always be

true. Some people are more particular
than others, but we all have preferences.

So that's where the disordered boundaries comes
in. And how that? What

you were talking about was forbidden emotions. And so how this comes into the

disordered boundary game is that I grew
up in a house where anger was not

allowed, right and forbidden emotion.
So then what happens when you're angry?

Well, A, you can't recognize
it be you. You literally turn it

into another emotion that's more acceptable.
So I would turn my anger into sadness,

I would turn it in into depression, because it was okay if I

cried, but it wasn't okay if
I got mad and imagine how that's grewed

up my relationships and my boundaries as
I'm growing up and going forth in life,

because anger is one of the essential
emotions that you literally cannot live a

healthy life without knowing yourself in understanding
your relationship to anger. But tears represent

a weakness or all that. That's
okay for a girl to be feeling,

because this is because it's it's self
deprecating and it's and it's and it's and

it doesn't have any strength behind it
and it's not threatening. I have a

question because I think that for some
people, myself, I don't know that.

I grew up in a in a
family where certain emotions weren't allowed,

but there were certain emotions that I
did not see. So is that?

Is that the same thing? Like
I didn't see a lot of anger in

my family. I didn't see a
lot of sadness in my family. Um,

so those are like, yes,
two emotions that I don't really you

don't really. You weren't familiar with
it was hidden. Yeah, here's the

thing. It's why it's the same
they have is that it's it's the same

end result because, foreign to us, we are not masterful at experiencing and

expressing those emotions, whether they were
strictly like in my house it was strictly

forbidden, like there would be a
consequence if I were to display anger.

I would get in trouble or I
would be rejected by my parents or whatever.

Right, it doesn't have to be
that extreme. If you were in

a family system where anger and sadness
were more repressed emotions, it would still

impact your ability to access those emotions
in yourself and in your relationships. I

see our producer Ryan, who's nodding
and shaking his head. And Ryan,

I were talking about a female point
of view and I wonder if you could

jump on in here with is this. Is this a similar thing for what

boy child WHO's growing up? And
I know you you speak Terry to to

to all of us, but to
me it's always very interesting. Women aren't

the only ones who are interested in
self help and the recognition of what the

patterning is as a child. Is
this ringing true to you? Did you

have emotions that weren't allowed growing up? I mean there was never said,

you know, I was never said
you can't feel this way, but Um,

yeah, I think so. I
think uh, of course one was

like, well, were you allowed
to cry? Yeah, I was allowed

to cry, but I definitely tried
not to. I don't know, I

don't know if it's my family pressure
or friend pressure. You know, I

don't which which one that really is. Well, I don't know if this

is too revealing, but I know
that you said you hadn't seen your father

cry, you know, until your
until your wedding, and how we the

patterning that we see in our in
the one that we want to be.

You know, I think I mean
that's that. It's that unconscious patterning.

Well, he didn't do it,
so I shouldn't do it either. Yeah,

that's a good point. Yeah,
I didn't see him cry until I

was like twenty three. Or I
didn't see him cry until his mother left.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
didn't see my father cry until one

of our horses died. And it
wasn't the divorce. It wasn't the divorce,

but but it's a weird thing to
see that emotion. And I know

it's a child like whenever I was
really, really sad, I hit it

from my mother and I see,
I see my daughter did that with me,

like she wasn't totally comfortable when she
was going through a breakup coming to

me, but it's been a little
bit different with my son. He's more

open to come to me with his
emotions, and so it's just an interesting

it's an interesting dynamic that we set
up without quite realizing that we do.

And so like, do you think
that that's something that you're doing now and

you have no idea you're doing it
to like your kids? Well, that's

I mean, let's go. Well
you, I want to go into that

question. What that? Of course
we're unconscious and some things and of course

that's why we have Terry on and
and these incredible people to come on and

help us teach and understand what what
we're doing. Part of it is bringing

the awareness to bringing the awareness to
the table. And I really like,

Terry, that you that you talk
about both male and female, because I

think we um, we assume as
girls like self help us kind of a

cool thing for girls, you know, and women to get into, and

you talk about it. It's obviously
for all genders. And the way that

we experience our change or our transformation. Would you talk about, which is

why this book is so important,
the transformation into the healing of learning what

these boundaries are and we have different
ways to approach them, men and men

and women. I think, and
I don't know why, if you want

to talk about what you see in
your practice, that that can illuminate that.

Well, I think that it also
depends on when you were born and

how old you are, because I
do think, thankfully, that some things

are changing now. There's still,
though, this collective consciousness around gender,

but in the past few years we've
had so many different gender expressions and and

actually more progress towards more inclusion.
But when you think about there's still this

it's going to take a long time, like another fifty years probably, until

the mindset about how gender roles.
How should straight men act? How should

straight women act? Let's just say
now there's a lot that's Um, you

know, shaking this up right now, which is amazing. But really what

we're talking about is what what was
the expectation? There's an expectation like working

women, you know, we're looking
in a Hetero sexual way. I considered

more of the softer sex, where
the bridgers, the assuagers, the fixers,

the the you know, where the
soothers of like life and men are

supposed to be making the money and
doing the thing. And now I think

a lot of folks now are rejecting
those roles and becoming way more um dual.

Right, because we have Yin and
Yang. All of us have both

the feminine and the Masculine and everything
in between in us. But I think

that there's a different kind of pressure
put on men because you're raised more,

at least back when I was being
raised. So anyone in their fifties,

let's say forties, fifties, sixties, where there's an expectation of you being

more independent, more of a leader, be strong, and for girls and

women, it was more about be
a team player, take one for the

team, make sure everyone else is
okay, be dialed in. You wonder

why we have antenna's that go up
to frigging Mars, because we're so you

know, someone walks into a room
and I don't, it doesn't matter.

I mean if you're an empath or
a highly sensitive person, which so many

people in my audience certainly are in
yours too, I imagine I could the

second someone walks in, I could
sense if something is wrong. I don't

even know you and I'm like,
I think that person might be violent.

I'm not sure like they just walked
in the room and didn't say a word.

But it's almost like we felt or
feel responsible for the feelings, the

outcomes, the decisions, the relationships
of other people, which is where codependency

like everyone's going to feel at the
end of this Thanksgiving dinner, everyone's gonna

be happy everything, and everybody like
dreads the next Thanksgiving dinner because nobody said

the truth and nobody talks about anything
and nobody asked Aunt Mary why she was

wearing a mustache. You know,
you just you're like why all of that

conditioning that puts us in the center
of Oh shoot, I forgot who I

was, and next year I'm not
going to remember either. Well, I

think a lot of it relates to
conflict avoidance, right. So I know,

like for me personally, my whole
life is centered around conflict avoidance and

I'm trying to be better about that. I'm at it. But in,

in, in somebody who is really, really conflict a verse. That really

fucks with your boundaries, I would
imagine it does. But here's the thing.

The first thing anybody listening, anybody
watching this who's like, Oh my

God, that's me, I'm conflict
of verse, help. You'RE gonna change

your mind because we're really just talking
about effective communication and talking true every when

we talk about boundaries. All the
myths around boundaries is like it's you just

being like no and all a grow
and kicking people to the curb and my

way or the highway, and it's
not like that at all. What we're

really saying is it matters who you
actually are, Heather, and matters how

you feel, matters what you want
matters. And if we go through life

prioritizing this desire to avoid conflict because
it makes us so uncomfortable, we are

constantly self abandoning to fulfill that directive
of avoiding conflict. So part of it

is we're going to change our mind
about what conflict is. It's not a

dirty word. It doesn't have to
be mean or terrible or abusive. It

can be. Hey, I'd like
to make a simple request that if you're

going to be more than ten minutes
late, you give me a call,

because when you don't, I find
myself see them all night and then it

ruins our evening and I love you
and I don't want to see for four

hours when this thing is so avoidable. So can we agree that you're going

to let me know, because it
makes me feel very not considered when you

don't. And I think that as
we get older too, I can speak

for myself in this conflict avoidance.
It resentment builds, I think because you've

been at it for so long and
so so that becomes the thing too.

It's just a file cabinet morning to
just out there listening. Well, I

want to then, for real.
I want to. I want to say

that on on your website you can
go and you can take a style quiz

and and the style that we have
in our in our abandonment, also what

it is. The reason I want
everybody to take it. Did you take

the quiz? I did. Okay, so I asked for my for my

results to be sent back to me. That's why my computer was on.

I had a feeling and assumed that
heather take it, because there's no way

to millionaires, but she didn't tell
me to take it or anything. Yeah,

I was going to tell you last
night. But but but there's this

this style quiz and I was like, wow, this is really interesting.

Terry's getting into clothing and that fashion, which is it was such a contradiction

to what you know, I've been
listening to it. I was like,

that's weird, that's cool. Wait
a minute, what how does our style

reflect? The many issues are okay
anyway, but it's not. It's the

style with which the style with which
you are interacting through your abandoned been issues

and and helping you understand what your
boundaries are. She's asking these questions and

she gives you these, you know, five choices. I swear to God,

everybody should take it. What's not
only interesting, I want you to

explain the quiz, but I also
as as you are defining for us.

What you're doing is laying out language
in the five different things that you're proposing,

is choices, options. She gives
us options to how we interact in

the world. Like, say,
the situation occurs, your friends always later.

It's like she just said. So
how would you? How would you

respond? And in laying out the
five different options that you have, you

are literally going through, first of
all, yes, you realize you have

options and you're going through the differences
in language that you've seen people interact with,

how you've been treated and the way
with which you answer difficult situations or

conflict or whatever. So can you
explain the importance of this, of this

quiz and this I really appreciate simple
language in helping us have a guide.

And you say that you have a
guide and that is before you answer.

That the best, the best response
to one of those for people who don't

drink, because I'm always sensitive about
this because I actually do drink and I

don't think it's fair to people who
don't drink when the bill comes and they

have to pay for everybody's drinks.
And one of the questions on there is

what do you do when the bill
comes and you haven't had any cocktails and

everybody else is drinking and they and
one of your responses is, you know,

I'm not paying for Y'all tequil a
shot, you know, in a

funny way, which I just think
is a great response rather than being like,

you know, well, I didn't
have, you know, like make

it funny like that. I just
really liked it. Right. So,

so the quiz. Anyone can take
it. It's totally free. You just

go to boundary quiz dot com just
to it for yourself, do it for

an understanding of how you interact in
the world. Go, go, do

it, and it's also fun and
fast, but it is fun and fast

questions. But with it you'll get
an archetype. So some people are more

of a peacekeeper or Um, a
pushover. Some people are more of like

an ice queen or a loner.
So your answers to those thirteen questions that

should probably take you about seven minutes
to take it or ten minutes. You'll

get an actual answer. and they're
all videos. So if you whatever you

got, because so I'm gonna Guess. Heather, I'm looking at you.

You're definitely one of the peacekeeper pushover. Or wait, there's one. There's

another. Third one, homeland peacekeeper
or the chameleon. Was Tricky for me.

I haven't brought it yet. I
did it last night. I struggled

with what I knew I shouldn't click. Yes, another there you go,

peacekeeper, chameleon, like I don't
want to be that, but but I

feel like I am that and I
bet you're the Ice Queen. So we're

gonna see if those things are correct. Of course, could answer every question

very quickly. I think what it? What it? One of one of

the one of the questions put me
in it in Um. There wasn't a

response that I really liked and which
I also thought was really funny, because

it's like, well, if you're
in a conflict in in business, you

know what would you do? And
there wasn't one like Oh, I'm going

to like handle this, I'm going
to negotiate, I'm gonna it's more like

no, I'm gonna say what I
funk I want. I'M gonna make people

understand that my point of view is
better, because it usually is. And

there was no other option and I
was and and I would take it or

leave it. I'm kind of a
bit and I was like, Oh my

God, the one option. And
it's not that people think I'm a bit,

but of course that's part of why
taking the quiz is so interesting,

because I knew that that how I'm. What it also does this help you

reflect and receive yourself, being a
truthful in a truthful way. It's not

about condemning yourself, it's about shining
shining light on and I'm I'm pretty obviously

confident about who I am, Ice
Queen, I think, being could you

describe that, because I think that
probably would be the Cat Gregory. I

don't think any of these categories.
I don't think you get a winning remark

like yeah, you've got you're a
really good person. That's not what you're

doing. You're you're you're showing us. No arch types of art of me

too. That's the right answers on
every single page. Isn't that amazing?

Because one of the archetypes, yeah, one of the archetypes is having healthy

boundaries. So here here's the thing. What the what the quiz does?

It's basically saying when you are not
at your best, when your boundaries are

disordered, when you're under pressure,
because here's the thing, it's easier to

have better boundaries when we're not in
conflict, right, when we're not under

pressure, when there's not a situation, because those are more positive boundaries.

You can say I really want to
do this tonight or whatever, and that

that is also some kind of a
boundary. But we're talking about boundaries where

you need to push back, and
that is where this archetype comes in and

shows you, when you're under pressure, are you more of a peacekeeper or

not? And a reason why it
matters, for those of you listening boundary

quiz dot com, is that when
you have insight and go oh, because

not all boundaries are disordered. In
the same way, you can have two

loose boundaries, which are called poorest
boundaries, you can call you can have

two hard boundaries, which is called
having rigid boundaries, and then in between

those things, that's like the healthy
boundaries are somewhere in between. But there

needs to be a certain amount of
flexibility. And the misunderstanding that most people

have about boundaries is they think that
rigid boundaries, someone who's like my way

or the highway, is having healthy
boundaries and it's not, because having healthy

boundaries means you can talk to someone
else, even if you disagree with them,

and you can agree to disagree.
How they would appreciate if I had

that. Would like if I if
I had that skill. was literally just

thinking that. You do, literally, but I let her say. I

mean, I know, I because
I like I like we we were on

a phone call, to be completely
honest with you, where I was I

was doing. It's kind of a
little bit more it's my way or the

highway attitude. I do feel like
I I do. So thank you for

saying that, but there are times
about to say that about you, because

thanks, because you will be thinking
strong in a position, but but you

will if, if it makes sense
to you, you'll come off it.

You won't, you won't hang your
hat on a certain position. Never come

off of it. You if it, if it makes sense and we get

to it, you'll you'll move on
it. Right, right. I like

the better idea. I appreciate that, because that's obviously something that I've been

working on in our in our I
mean what we we like to learn that,

because I was literally just thinking that. But I do think, I,

I do put my I I like
to stick by what I do,

but also that's because they, you
know, work hard at structuring what I

do. And and if you don't
have a better idea than you better listen

to mine. And that was a
lot of your options. But I would

love, Um for you to to
talk about these rigid boundaries and and and

I I have so much I have
so much appreciation for you, the the

Ice Queen, the rigid boundaries and
again, going back to parents, parental

habiting and patterning, because so much
of that comes from, I mean how

we pattern ourselves and how we be
interact is from what our childhood was.

For me, you know, it
was fight or die. I mean that's

that's all there was to it and
a lot of my what I believe in

comes from that fight. And there
are some things that you're just not going

to there's cloaks that I wear that
I mean, honey, you don't stand

in my way, how but you
know, and and those those badges of

honor, but also those things,
there's those things that you can't sometimes change

in yourself. I'd like to talk
about that because because I feel like there's

a gap between US understanding our our
our our boundaries, our ability or capacity,

and telling the truth, not about
the tell everything wrong. One of

the things you say about parents is
they were probably doing the best they could.

We've we've learned a lot here.
I'm better together. Everybody is doing

the most, usually doing the best
they can, and I and for me

to say that from the background I
came from, that's giving a lot of

forgiveness, I gotta say, folks, because, wow, you look at

my parents, I mean who were
they really doing it? But but if

you take that point of view and
look back at the story about telling the

Truth Yourself, I feel like there's
a gap between our self esteem and being

able to tell the truth about what
our interaction with that truth was and and

can you kind of merge that for
us? I can. What I was

going to say, though, is
that I I feel like, listen.

It's very generous to say people were
doing the best that they could write,

because my my two cents is this. It doesn't even matter at this point,

because what manners is you and your
life and what you're going to do

now. And I think that people
really like to jump over the part of

healing that requires us to be really
honest about the way as our parents failed

us. We're not we can talk
to them, we cannot. They could

be dead, they could be alive. It doesn't matter. The kid within

each one of us can't just skip
over that and be like, you know,

I would have therapy clients come to
me and be like, I should

be over it, it happened thirty
years ago. I'm like, you're never

going to be over it unless we
honor what actually had. Like we have

to tell the truth, for to
ourselves at the very least. We don't

need to listen. You don't want
to involve anyone else, you don't have

to, because it's your healing journey. But kids in dysfunctional and chaotic and

abusive family systems we are trained to
abandon ourselves and be like well, I

mean, I understand why my parents
did, because they had a terrible childhood

too, and Blah, blah,
blah. Here's the thing. I don't

care. The kid within you needs
the acknowledgement of like that sucked, that

just was really bad, that that
was very bad for me, and I

want someone, the child within us, want someone to just honor like hey,

that sucked and look at where you
are now and this is amazing.

But with the parents, like,
I don't know, people really get into

this whole trip on forgiveness. I
just gotta say it's not like my thing.

I'm not into it. I'll tell
you why. I love you more.

I love you more every second you
talk. Well here. Here's the

thing with forgiveness, though. It
is so it is so corrupted with ideas

of it's like we're giving up something, someone's getting over on us, and

then there's the whole religious connotation.
There's just so much crap. What I

say is it is our jobs to
let ourselves out of resentment prison. Haven't

we been in it long enough?
Yes, and that's what this healing work

does, is US waking up to
the fact that we have the key to

the resentment prison and we can just
open the door and go forward from here.

But I never, I only ever, will take people back. Two

things that we must go back to
in order to go forward. I'm not

interested in talking about third grade for
ten years, because who the hell cares?

What I care about? If something
happened in third grade that is blocking

you from creating the life you want
right now, well then I'm super interested

in that, unpacking that experience,
honoring integrating that experience. So I think

that there's there's a combination story that
you talk about in the book. Yes,

so, yes, so, that's
actually a perfect segue to the resentment

inventory, because people listen. Yes, exactly, because we just got to

go back to this. I hate
to say it, but this is just

where it all starts, is the
scene of the crime, which is the

family of origin, according to me. But people, when they go,

I don't know where to start with
my boundaries, like I don't even know

how my boundaries are. So you
go boundary whuiz Dot Com and take that.

That will be the beginning, and
then you're going to take a resentment

inventory, because that will tell you
right now what relationships in your life need

your attention most urgently. So I'll
tell you what that is. You're going

to write a list of your sort
of the v I P S in your

life, your closest people, and
then you're gonna put there's a whole thing

that says resentment I'm holding onto,
and then you're gonna be really honest and

in that little box next to your
best friend's name, you're gonna say what

resentment you're holding onto, if anything, and you know what you're gonna say

and you know what you want to
say. But this is a quiz for

you to tell the truth, yes, and it's also a quiz for you

to not. It's not resentment.
If we just go with the resentment right,

we can get so wrapped up and
blame and shame and guilt. We're

not going to do that. We're
gonna look at that resentment and go,

okay, this resentment was created by
me, by them. So what can

I do differently? Where did I
collude with this other person unconsciously to make

this thing happen or or to allow
it to happen? I didn't say anything.

I let my friend money and then
she said she'd give it back in

a month and then she didn't give
it back for six months and she's still

not giving it back. But where? What is the onus is on me.

Maybe I didn't say anything or I
didn't have a clear and clean agreement

about lending one. MPs just never
lend money. That's it, all right.

It's just the dumb. It's just
the worst. It's always going to

go back. If you can't afford
to give it, you don't do it.

Yeah, we can all agree on
that, and if you can,

fantastic. That's yes, it's just
the worst because money is not just dollars

and cents. Of course it's fully
loaded for whatever it meant in your family

system, but because it comes in
exchange that wants something back from that,

from that, from that, but
scene of the crime or whatever that was

back in your childhood. So you're
supposedly lending the money, but what you're

asking for is the healing of something
that you have had broken. And then

when they don't do that for you, then you take it out on them

because it's all the resent build up
on the from whatever you saw when you

were twelve or in the book you
talk about. I think it was a

maybe it was a patient or somebody
who, in the workplace, kept getting

into fights in her office, no
matter what job she was in. You

know, would have these rivalries with
with somebody, and then when you dug

deeper, you found out why.
I think that maybe talk about that now

when people could relate to that.
Yes, that that that is actually was

such a fascinating story and I've seen
it. I've actually seen it before.

So I called this repeating boundary realities
or repeating relationship realities, where so I

had this client. She had a
job, she had like an arch arch

enemy Mary. She hated this lady
everything, everything about her she hated.

She's like she's discussing, she doesn't
wash her hands after she uses the bathroom,

like everything. She just hated her. So then I thought maybe,

and she would always say things like
well, everybody, everybody has this,

and I would always say no,
not really, just right now, we're

just talking about you. Like people
will try to normalize their behavior, but

I'd be like, I'm sure everyone
has this experience. I'm like none.

Ever, anyway, next job,
she has the same exact situation. Yeah,

same thing, and but her name
wasn't Mary, but it was literally

the same thing where she was like
I hate her, blah, blah,

blah. And then finally I was
like, okay, the common denominator in

this lady story, of course,
is her living our lives right, it's

pretty much gotta be us, especially
if it's a repeated if it's a repeated

situation, it's definitely you. Meaning
doesn't mean the other person may not be

acting like a jerk. Maybe they
are, but why are you drawing that

into Your Life Multiple Times? That
is an unhealed something in you. So

I gave her these things that I
call the three cues for clarity. So

these three questions you can ask yourself
any time you're in a repeated situation where

you're like, how am I in
another relationship with another unavailable person, or

whatever it is? And I said
to her, so, of the these

arch enemies you've had, who do
they remind you of? Where have you

felt like this before, and how
or why is the way you're interacting with

them? Is it familiar to you? And she was like, Oh my

God, this is so embarrassing,
just like my sister Beth, and I

was like, tell me more about
Beth, and this was what it was

about, and I promise you,
when we were done unpacking the Beth arch

enemy story, she did not have
like that. There was no more need,

because we can only talk things out
or act things out. So when

she stopped, when she talked it
out, she was no longer compelled to

act it out. That we were
we am going to repeat that one.

This is you. We have two
options. We're talking it out or we're

acting it out. And and this
is this goes back to, I think,

the scene of the crime. Telling
the truth about your story. Once

you and we talk about this a
lot, on better together. Once you

speak the truth, the good thing
is that you don't have to Keep Gossiping

about somebody else and why they did
it wrong for months and months and months.

You are once you tell the truth
and you are witnessed, and I

think that is also a part of
in the beauty of therapy or the beauty

of having a best friend. Once
you say the truth and you're not bullshitting

yourself, it becomes something you can
look at and then make a conscious choice

about how you are going to organize
your emotion to activate the purpose of what

it is that you want to commit
to. That's next and further and I

just want to I just want to
squeeze you. These are the things that

that we need. We we need
so many reminders of but when we're told

what our choices are like, listen, you're doing one or two things.

You're acting it out or you're doing
it. I mean you're you're telling the

truth about it. So it just
is it just simplifies for us so,

so much. I I have to
if I can, just if I can

just bother you to talk about the
manipulative person Um you talk about. Oh

my Golly, I mean, I
still want to get back to the list

of emotions. We want to talk
about the meditation at the end. You've

given us the threeques. Everybody's got
to take the quizzes. But I know

for a fact that when you start
listening to Terry you're going to be able

to organize yourself in terms of where
you are, when you listen to any

of the stories of these issues that
she's talking about, about where you could

have been and whether or not you
went through that same exact situation. I'll

tell you what, when you talk
about being emotionally manipulated, and again this

is part of how we don't understand
our boundaries. So we don't know how

to say no. Or she talks
to you on the quiz and says,

Hey, listen, when you're on
a first date and it's twenty minutes in

and you really don't like that person, what do you do? Do you

stay and have dinner anyway, or
do you, you know, get up

and say, excuse me, I
think. What did you do? You

go in the bathroom and just leave
your answer. So of course I said,

Hey, listen, it's probably not
good for me, but I'll see

you later. You know, I
don't you go into the bathroom and leave

and skip out. No, no, you suffered through dinner. See.

But so all of these things are
helping to organize this. I had been

my patterning was so much so that
I got involved in being emotionally manipulated and

every single thing. I want to
encourage our listeners to go on if there

is a topic that you think that
you're in the midst of. That's and

Terry've done over three through those signs
because I recognized a lot of emotional manipulations.

The Love Bomb, love that word
too. Can you talk about emotional

manipulation? And of course we're all
we're talking about boundary boss the Terry Calls

Book here, and all of the
different things that our pathways into not understanding

our boundaries and being emotionally manipulated is
not something that I recognized. That's somebody

like that, somebody burrowing into your
boundaries without you quite realizing that they are

right. Yes, please, please, they're very sneak sneaky. The way

that I called it in the book
right, I talked about Um boundary destroyers.

So everything that I teach you in
the book, even about boundary bullies,

is different because none of those rules
that I teach you how to have

a proactive boundary conversation, I give
you a whole chapter of just scripts.

None of that really applies if you
are dealing with a master manipulator. Could

be narcissistic personality disorder or any of
the other untreated cluster B personality disorders.

Could be historyonic, could be bipolar, untreated. They'll keep in mind where

if you go to them and are
authentic and are earnest and honest about how

you feel, they will for sure
use it against you. So let's talk

about sort of the top manipulation tactics
that we see that people need to be

aware of. So the two probably
most damaging. So we have love bombing,

which a lot of people are familiar
with. It means that they pour

it on you know, want to
fly you to Paris for dinner and,

like date three, can't wait to
ask you to go to a wedding in

like talking about the future, having
the most amazing sex, like everything is

just so awesome and it's like addicting
and their right. But then you're moving

into this accelerated timeline. With love
bombing too, usually that they're amping up

the timeline, like while my lease
is up and we're gonna move it.

Like it always makes me so nervous
when clients are like it's amazing, I'm

madly in love, I'm good on
three days and we're getting engaged, and

I'm like, Hey, man,
pump the brakes, because if it's good

on the third date, it'll be
good on the third week and the third

month. But if we're accelerating it
so fast, it is being driven by

something other than love or lust.
It there there is a way of trying

to grab you and sink their teeth
into which is what they're doing. So

That's love bombing. Another one is
gas lighting where someone who is denying your

reality, your lived experience. They
will either bold face, slide to your

face and be like, I never
said that and I never said we would

do that. No, you misunderstood
Um, or they'll use fake concern.

They'll be like they I'm really worried. I'm worried about you. I really

am listening. I wasn't gonna say
anything, but BOB said that he's worried

about you too. I mean,
I mean if you are not describing my

ax. I'm seven years out of
leaving a person that I didn't even marry,

and it's still happening. My deepest
and darkest issue in my life right

now is solving the emotional manipulation that
I first of all, I left to

get out of it. Second of
all, it does not get any better,

and I am with a warning sign. It's going on now for the

same behavior and and what happens is
you start when you're in the relationship,

you try to defend yourself and,
Oh my God, what do I have

any chance of change? I feel
like I've come at it from every single

way, including having heather negotiate it
for me. I mean seriously. But

here's the thing. Are you required
to have contact with us because we share

a son? Okay, so it's
also the financial manipulation. Oh, what

are you talking about? What?
She talks about emotional manipulation in such a

straightforward way. It's like they take
responsibility for anything. What do you mean?

You wouldn't even have that car if
I didn't get you that car.

But that least was my I seen
years ago. Or there's always something that

they did to earn the praise that
they are wanting given to themselves and thinking

that you should be giving them.
All right, so let's let's trust me.

I get it. Here's my thought. You have to limit your contact

as much as possible, even with
the child. You can limit it as

much as possible. Go through mediators
if you can. No phone calls at

all, just knowne. We're not
talking, we're only texting. Maybe we're

only maybe we're only emailing. And
here's the thing. You don't have those

buttons pushed up so that they can
slam them in. So you know the

gray rock method. You know they
talk about the gray rock method. Do

you know what this else? Okay, so this is when you're dealing with

and I don't know your person.
But this is when you're dealing with the

narcissist. Any conflict is feeds a
narcissist, and so they're really into stiring

the pot and and any emotion they
can get from you is how they yeah,

so part of it is the gray
rock method, and actually it was

just someone online who shared it years
ago. It's been going around forever and

it's basically become as uninteresting as a
gray rock, become as boring, become

as like a wet rag. No, never there is no acceleration of your

energy at all the person. If
the person is like Gray Rock, you

are, you are absolutely. He
asked me. I'm gaslighting in the middle

of a day, like I didn't
even I haven't even talked to him in

three days and I'm gaslighting. But
some by the way, an example of

me learning boundaries was when he text
me over, you know something, trying

to get me and and I said
because if I had greg rocket. He

goes to heather and he says I'm
really concerned about it. I put up

my boundary and said I am not
getting in the middle of this anymore.

It did not go well last time. I am not, I am not,

and I and I have not,
and that for me it was difficult

because I was trying to you know, and just so everybody knows, that's

a shortcut to say he was going
to pay for half of the Alice's education

for a year and he didn't,
and he told and he didn't tell me.

He lied to be until the very
end of the year and then Alice

wasn't going to be asked back to
school next year. And I say this

with truth, and I will say
this to our audience. I do not

gossip. I tell the truth and
I don't ever I have. I don't

speak about my my ex at all. I am only revealing information that I

have shared in front and with atlas
in order to clarify things that are being

said. By the way, it
doesn't stop. This is the steam rolling.

But let's get back to to too
great rock. But what happens is

the manipulation goes so far that you're
so caught in a lie and you're so

then it's six months later and there's
and then you lose your ship, and

then that and it's not great.
And that exactly. And then he loves

worried about you, and Bob is
too. Yeah, yeah, exactly correct.

So I think, Heather, you
should not talk to him at all.

Go ahead and keep your conversation super, Super Limited to the best of

your ability, and don't listen.
Here's the thing. I know that you

can do your best legally to try
to get the person to do what they're

supposed to do, but the reality
is that is their lever on you is

to trick you. As you say, I'm going to do it, and

then, yeah, that's it.
What rag? It's really hard for me

to act like a wet rag,
but I consider it a role. I'M

gonna exactly you'RE gonna give. Yes, it's a film role. I'm telling

you because I want a marvel gray
rock Austar. Yes, for portraying the

role. I love it. Yes, yes, we'll make a movie poster

and everything. When, when we
have back in a few months, you're

gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna
be giving my but you know you're going

to introduce me in my speech from
Your Best Gray Rock. I love it.

I love it. I think we
should cover one more thing for the

audience. This is a question I
always get. Do we have time?

Yes, and I have one more
thing too. Okay, great, so

how about you do your one more
thing, because it might be the same

thing. I really liked when you
talked about body wisdom and when when you

step away from something to note how
you feel after the interaction. Can you

talk just a little bit about that, because I think that's something that everybody

can recognize within themselves to make a
change. Is that the same one?

Yes, and here's the thing.
That was what I was going to talk

about. Yes, I swear to
God, because everyone always asks, how

can I tell when a boundary has
been violated? Like, how do I

know in the moment, because I'm
always confused, like I feel something,

but I'm not sure. So when
it comes to decoding when a boundary has

been crossed, Um and really what
you can do about it, you're going

to dial into your body and you
may not be able to do it in

the moment, and that's okay.
You can eventually learn to because if you

have a flight fight, flight,
freezer, fond response because you feel threatened

by the boundary violation, you may
not be able to handle it in the

moment. But I want you to
think back. Right, you'll think back

on something. So the possible signs
that a boundary has been crossed, you

can have physical sensations like a constriction
in your chest, pain in your throat.

Um. You might be freeze right
where you can't really talk in that

moment. You want to vomit.
Maybe you actually vomit. Gut or head

pain. Um, accelerated heartbeat,
right where your heart now is slamming.

Maybe your sweating. You might feel
resentment. So the emotional things that might

come. Feel irritated, feel annoyed. Um, you might want to run

away. So you want to shut
down the conversation. Um, you might

feel sudden like a flash of anger, you know, like where your face

will get hot for a second and
then you just sort of keep on going.

Now here's the thing with what you
do after. You're going to start

to and you guys who are watching
and listening, I want you to start

to take note of what happens in
your body. And maybe you know right

now, like with you guys,
what happens when a boundary gets crossed.

Where do you feel it physically?
Oh well, well, are you asking

what? I can feel it in
my in my chest, in my like

if if if I'm if I'm on
a call or if I'm treated in a

way it I don't speak out for
myself, I I feel like a constriction.

I know this because because I do. Yeah, I try very hard

to not act on my emotion until
I can put some intelligence on it.

What happens to me when my boundaries
are being crossedes? The egg I a

guy, go back to the original
crime, I go back to the crime

scene and put that person right there
and they want to kill him. I

can't, I can't, I can't
stand it. And I also feel the

same exactly when I see somebody else's
boundaries being crossed and they don't have the

understanding that we're talking about knowing.
I want to protect them like a Mama,

but I'm I'm I'm a fighter.
I don't like when somebody is being

hurt and I don't like being hurt. So you get hot indeed, and

you both know, like your your
body wisdom though, like you, but

you both know that there's something that
happens and then you can go back and

revisit it, because a lot of
people think, Oh, I missed my

chance, I should have said something
in the meeting. That's not so.

There's no statute of limitations. I'm
going back and being like, Oh hey,

Bob, remember the summer of seventy
eight when you did that terrible thing

to me? I want to talk
about it. You can always do that

right. It's there's no statute of
limitation and it's important. The last thing

you, guys, I want to
say about this is that making a boundary

request, telling the truth about what
we experienced or how we feel. It's

not a lever to control others.
Right, you're healing is in having the

courage to negotiate for yourself. You're
healing is in acting in a way in

your life where you're saying what I
think matters, how I feel matters,

what I want matters, and I'm
going to live my life that only people

who agree with that can be in
the v I p section of my life

and have close access to me.
Because if you do not think that what

I think and how I feel and
what I want matters, then you do

not belong. Your generally admission only
for those mother efforts, you know what

I mean. Find Your own crew. Well, also, what you're doing

is repatterning yourself, so you're taking
away the parental patterning. You're saying,

okay, now, I recognize my
behavior. I can look back at that.

That's part of why we don't want
to build the resentment thing over,

the pool of resentment, over years
and years, because then you're like wait,

Bob and seventy eight. So if
we keep if we keep up to

it and are encouraged to say look, yes, you walked away from dinner,

you didn't do the thing. But
when you recognize that, what happens

is the next time you go into
a situation like that, because you brought

your story forth. So then you're
telling it, you're not acting it out,

and then you get then when you
go back into that situation, you're

reconditioning yourself to be aware. You
Go, Oh, I'm I'm starting to

get hot right here. What am
I feeling? Let me take a step

back. I'M gonna be intelligent about
this. I'M gonna go use the restroom

for a second, come back,
take a breath and go. I don't

want to have to remember this in
a week. I want to activate this

now because I do matter, because
the people around me matter, because I've

made the choice to say Your Your
v I P section. I really,

I really like that. I want
everybody to be encouraged. This is so

amazing to have had you on here
encourage you to be surrounded by only the

B I P S, and I
just want to say it reminds me a

little bit of what we learned a
couple of weeks ago with Dr Martha Beck,

told us don't ever let somebody treat
you in a way that you wouldn't

treat them. I think boundaries.
Yeah, yeah, so can we just

say thank you and everybody has go
and do the quiz? Yes, no,

but, but I think it would
be I know. But but if

you, if you do for the
four breaths with us before we go,

because I think, no, I
think we're gonna end with the with your

two minute meditation. But the thing
that you do with more breaths is so

easy for us all to do now. And as a matter of fact,

I told my son, who's a
picture high school picture, and he,

you know, in the middle of
he turns around on the mound and can

do you this and it's just very
simple because it's sixty seconds exactly. So

can you take us through that?
To close us, I show kin,

close your eyes and we're just going
to breathe in for account of four.

Go One, two, three for
now. Hold two, three for x

hall. Two, three four,
hold it out, two, three four,

Amen Hollow. Yeah, Terry Cole, you are a master. I

am I am so honored to have
shared this hour with you and I feel

our guests are so are so lucky. We're so lucky. Everybody. Go

listen to Terry Cole. Please get
her book, the boundary boss and go

take that. Terry Cole Dot Com. Is that where we find you?

Yes, and boundary quiz dot com. And they can get all kinds of

bonuses at boundary boss Book Dot Com. And if you want to check out

my mastermind, go to Terry Cole
Dot Com. Forward, slash, I

mean I wanted us to go sign
up for you know this this flourished.

This flourish. It would be such
an incredible but such an incredible intensive with

you. I thank you so much. You have made us better to date.

Carry God bless you have a terrific
debtor together. Thank you, thank

you. There's so much to take
away from this show. I feel like

listening back to it to under that
was a good one. Um, I

think Darius just a master of wisdom
about how we make changes in our lives,

telling our truth about our about understanding
where we are, being present in

it. I mean just understanding our
body language, understanding our which has to

do with our boundaries, understanding what
what creates the patterning of of our initiative

to not have boundaries. All it
just and she puts everything into such semi

takeaways were wonderful, helpful solutions the
gray rock and dealing with the narcissist incredibly

helpful. I have a new Oscar
performance that the heather is going to give

me an award for US noticing.
I'm going to become a noticing everybody.

Just wait and see. Um,
there's just noticing how you feel after interactions.

I mean it goes on and on
and on. Guys heard it.

So I mean that this is one
that I'm going to listen to it back

myself. Yes, and there's a
lot more nuggets on her website and we're

going to leave at the end of
this one of her two minute meditations.

She recommends that you meditate in the
morning and at night. You know,

I'm not a very good meditator,
I don't but I can do long I

can do two minutes and I did
this two minute meditation and it's really great.

So well then that's a challenge.
That's how we're going to activate our

purpose. On this one, we
can do two minutes. We are asking

ourselves to set boundaries for ourselves,
understand and recognize, and part of that

is in thinking and contemplating and being
still with ourselves, and that's why this

meditation is going to be so helpful
and I will challenge you in myself to

do it this week. Everybody had
a great, great week. Well,

hello and welcome to this week's tune
up tip, which is a summer meditation

from my heart to yours. So
I'M gonna ask you to sit down,

Gelly, close your eyes, turn
your phone off first, of course,

unless you're watching this on your phone. And let's start by taking a couple

of deep breaths, breathing in through
your nose and exhiling through your mouth.

Do this a few more times and
we're gonna start with a full body relaxation,

starting from the top of your head. I want you to see a

beautiful amethyst light. This is a
protective light, moving from above to below.

See this light behind your eyes,
relaxing all of the muscles around your

eyes, moving into your jaw muscles, releasing see and feel this light moving

into your neck muscles, relaxing your
shoulder muscles. If you need to drop

your shoulders, do it. If
you need to roll your neck a little

bit, do that. Feel those
muscles releasing. And I want you to

see and feel this light moving into
your biceps and your triceps, your elbows,

your forms, your wrists, all
the way down your hands and your

fingers. Feel this relaxing light movement
to the back of your body, relaxing

your upper back, releasing your middle
back, relaxing your lower back and your

buttocks. And now you feel the
warmth of this light moving into the front

of your body, relaxing the big
muscles of your chest, your side body,

your obliques. And then you see
this light pouring into your entire torso,

illuminating all of your internal organs as
well, detoxifying and relaxing. And

now you see and feel this light
moving into your hips, relaxing the big

muscles of your thighs, your hamstrings, your knees, your shins, your

cats, your ankles, all the
way down to your feet and your toes.

And now your entire body, from
the top of your head and the

tips of your toes, is completely
and totally relaxed. And now I'm going

to ask you to conjure the feelings
of summer right in the middle of your

chest. Think about all of the
things that you love about the summertime and

allow yourself to go there. So, do you love the beach? I

want you to see yourself on the
beach. Do you love watermelon? Do

you love all corn and all the
foods that we get to eat during this

summer? The bounty is so rich
during the summer and, depending on where

you live, depends on what is
local to eat. But look for it,

because it's amazing feel that feeling of
expansion that you get to feel on

a summer day, if you're somewhere
at a lake or you're somewhere at the

beach, and even if, right
now you're just sitting in your office.

I'm going to ask you to conjure
that feeling right in the middle of your

chest, expansion and relaxation. Now
I'm going to ask you to take two

more deep breaths. I'm gonna Count
backwards from ten to one. Ten,

m nine, you're feeling rested and
relaxed. Eight, seven, feeling incredibly

grateful. Six, five, feeling
regrouped and renewed. Four, three,

feeling ready for what's next. Two, one, so just stretch your hands

and rock your feet and give yourself
a nice big full body stretch and welcome

back. I hope that you use
this little meditation whenever you need to get

away, whenever you need to feel
that feeling of rest, relaxation and expansion.

I hope you have an amazing week
and, as always, take care

of you and a big, big
thanks to our better together team, Ryan

Tillotson, Sylvana, Alcohola, Daniel
Ferrara and, of course, and an

heather. If you haven't already,
please subscribe on whatever device or platform you're

listening to this on and, as
always, see you next week.
Better Together w/ Anne Heche and Heather Duffy
Anne Heche's BETTER TOGETHER w/ Anne & Heather is a space where guests introduce us to the person that makes them better. For me, that's my friend, Heather, and t... View More




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