EPISODE 2: Tiger Queen with Howard & Carole Baskin

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Show Notes

Today Anne and Heather are joined by Betters, Howard and Carole Baskin, to talk all about all you want to know from the Tiger Queen herself! Learn the other side of the story and what Tiger King left out...

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STRAWT media. Everybody had to Ann
and Heather and I'm got to get her

to sing together. I said,
yes, we wish you a Merry Christmas,

we wish you are Merry Christmas,
we wish you are marry Christmas and

all then, live and loving kindness, please, live and loving kindness,

just living like kindness, and don't
be Dick. We better together withsten and

everybody is Anna and Heather and you
are listening to better together with Ann and

Heather. We have a special show
for you to listen to tonight, Christmas

Eve. We couldn't be happier to
have carol basket and her husband, Howard,

on the show. We got to
talk to them for about an hour

and really get to know them as
people and I really think that this episode

really shows what better together is all
about. They are clearly better together and

we really got to know who they
are as people. I think one of

the things from the outside looking in
really with an open mind, I was

moved by, first of all,
their humor, their compassion, their strength,

and she is just really a noble
bones about it. She fights for

what she wants and she tells the
truth about who she is. And they

are in this fight and it is
true and it's real and they opened up

to us in such a personal,
beautiful human way. And yes, I

would say that is our goal on
better together. Anybody who has preconceived notions

of who they are from the show
will listen to this. I hope people

listen to this and with an open
mind and an open heart and get to

know people for who they are,
because that's what that's what we're trying to

do on this show, is to
really bring the walls down and have people

get real and and really see who
they are. And I just couldn't be

happier with how open and honest they
were. And I know you guys are

just going to enjoy the shit out
of this. I mean, is there

a better gift to give? And
I think you and I both would have

loved to give every single person that's
been in our lives this year, supported

us this year, our friends this
year and our fans, new ones,

and people to have supported us in
our journey together. To say Mary Holidays

everybody, because you are going to
be listening to an interview that it is

exactly what heather and I are about
and love openness, truth and showing all

of of who you are. Perfect
Way to end two thousand and twenty with

with this, because what a what
a year, and what a better reminder

to say a let's all be more
on each other's side in two thousand and

twenty one. This is better together
than any there cheers were better to gain

withsten and hello, my goodness,
what a beauty, how incredible to see

you again. Where is your flower
Halo, My Love? Not Far Away.

We should wear we should have been
wearing you. Just pull something off

the tree. There exactly, look
the Carol. My friends gave me some

jewels. who were on dancing with
the stars. Oh my gosh. So

I wanted to say, first of
all, I love your shirt and I

wanted to say thank you to them
because, of course, like small businesses

everywhere and so many people hurt,
I wanted to give her a little support

on my instagram. So Heather said, why don't you hang the jewels that

she gave you on the tree?
So we decorated victory with her sparkles and

and sound out a hollow. So
we thought it would be fun to have

this, have this incredible moment with
with you and in front of my crisper

jewels free, so fun. Our
podcast today has none other than the Tiger

Queen, the inspiration, the lady
I danced, I wish, side by

side with, and her husband,
Howard. Carol asking is with us today

to join our family a better together
by bettering us with who she is,

her voice, her spirit and her
mission in this incredible life. We are

so thrilled to be able to share
this conversation with both of you. The

founder and CEO of big cat rescue. Her mission is to end the exploitation

and private possession of exotic cats and
we look forward to hearing more about that.

And she's joined by her better together, her husband, Howard Baskin.

He's a retired banker, finance guy
and is on the advisory board of big

cat rescue. And we're so happy
to have you. We're so happy to

have you guys. I can almost
imagine, Howard, that you go retired.

I never stopped working, are you
kidding? I wake up in the

morning and work and I go to
bed thinking about my work the next day.

Die. I just can imagine that
both of you, in this last

year, have words of perhaps wisdom
to share with us as we say thank

you for being here. Thank you, and you know for, I guess,

for any of our listeners or viewers
who have been under a rock.

Carol and Howard were featured on Netflix. Tiger king was kind of the perfect

I don't know what you call it, the perfect storm for a hit show.

It happened I think it was march
twenty, right as everybody was going

into lockdown and had nothing to do
but turn to the screen, and tiger

king had about sixty four million viewers, and so it was also the perfect

time for people to talk about it
on so social media and for all sorts

of I mean just it was just
a it caught on like crazy and I'm

curious to hear from you what what
that was like and when you kind of

realize that it had become this larger
than life thing, or did you realize

we were aware? Well, I
mean let's back up a little bit.

When you were when you were film, when you were a couple questions.

How did it come to you the
project and how did they pitch it to

you? And then at what point
did you realize that they were sort of

turning things a bit, you want
to go? Well, they us as

it would be the they black fish, a big cats blackfish being the documentary

that Really Change Sea world. And
so we we they came, I don't

know five, six, seven,
eight times that we would stop everything and

send days with them. They can
bus us. They were our best friends.

We took them, we took them
to Carol's Mother's house, you know,

I mean they were just, you
know, our best friends. They

were going to, you know,
put the bad guys in their place.

And then they did what they did. And we didn't know, I mean

the day, in the days before
it came out, they had told us

that they had to deal with Netflix
some time before and the days before I

saw this advertise and I had asked
them, you know, you're asking all

these questions about Joe Exotic. You're
telling us this is about the animals and

the industry. Why all the questions
about Joeysotic? I mean he's just one

person. And they said, Oh, well, we need all the details

so we know what to distill it
down to. But Joe would just be,

you know, a small part,
like we promised. You will obviously

lie. And and so this ad
came out, for it was the tiger

king, which Joe's face on Netflix, and me being so naive or stupid.

I look at it and say,
could Netflix have two different shows?

Wow, one one I joe,
and the one they're doing, which they

promised us with not Joe, and
so I can't. You know, I

email them and there was a delay
and getting back to me and and so

we went into watching it not knowing
what to expect. And then, of

course we watch episode three where,
you know, they just one lie after

the other, and you know there
are three overarching lies in the series itself.

One is that Joe is a sympathetic, you know, victim, which

is absolutely not true, and one
is that sanctuaries are the same as roadside

zoos, which is ridiculous. And
why they even went there I don't know,

except that Eric Good has, it
turns out as this, you know,

reptile industry background and and therefore may
have an affinity for the roadside zoos.

And the third is all the garbage
about, you know, Carol,

I think, anything to do with
their husband's disappearance, which is ridiculous.

I want to say out of being
a bit of an innocent Bo coming into

this story with you, Carol,
I by a beg forgiveness, because I

am not a person who no popcorne
knows what is going on. Nor Am

my person who cares to pay attention
to what other people tell me. And

I'm going to jump around a little
bit and thank you for talking about the

three lies, though I want to
of course we want to address that's kind

of how we organize the questions to
and things to talk to you about,

because I think there's a lot to
clarify. And when I actually when the

show aired, I thought there's something
doesn't feel right here, so I went

in to your website and actually read
what you had wrote and I think that

if anybody else had done the time, there's a lot more to the story

you. Yeah, and and I
think that's one of the things. I'm

going to jump right into dancing with
the stars for a moment just to acknowledge

for our audience that yes, I
was blessed to be Care Al, because

we both chose to put ourselves in
front of a huge audience celebrity dance vest,

you know, and I think we
both did it perhaps for similar reasons.

I don't want to assume yours,
but for me there was a very

clear intent that I had an opportunity
to set the record straight for myself and

tell the truth about something that had
happened twenty years ago. And I did

it in a minute, in twenty
nine seconds, and I felt in looking

at you, in your shy in
your beauty, in your boldness to have

made that decision, because I know
my decision to do it maybe wasn't so

well thought out, and I'm wondering
what, first of all, the the

instincts that you had to make that
choice and and what did you was it

about speaking a truth for you that
we can encourage you to to broaden here

with us, and did it turn
out to be what you wanted it to

be in terms of that, if
in fact I'm correct and assuming that you

wanted to speak your truth? Well, actually, my husband and my daughter

both thought that it would be a
great opportunity for people to see that I

was not the villainous and that was
portrayed in Tiger King. But I am

like a one trick pony and my
old goal was to get the message out

there about need to stop the cump
petting in order to save the Tiger in

the wild, and the people at
dancing with the stars gave me a huge

platform for that. I mean they
just he saw how much press they lined

up for us there less even after
I get scratched from the show, they

were still send impressed and may just
constantly, and so that has given me

the ability to talk about what Tiger
King missed, which was the Tigers.

They're the ones that were the real
victims and that show is their second goal

was to get a month away from
me. We've never been a part that

longer. Carol with it tear.
It seemed to be terrifying because I was

actually allowed to be in the trailer
with Anne and as she would wat talking

about dancing with the stars, walk
off to go dance, I was.

I was a nervous like it was. It was scary, wasn't it?

Well, I don't know. Oh, by g you knows it was for

me. Wow, was it for
you? And then we get to the

important stuffy how do you feel about
dancing? You know, I'm so old

and my concern mother out there in
slippery shoes on that slippery for I was

going to break a leg and I
was going to be a commission with the

work I need to do. Oh
my God, I when you came down

those steps, I was like,
first of all, I know how slivery

that floor was, and I'm pretty
I don't, but you know, I'm

up there too. Those eyes.
I maybe not so well thought out.

We by think we were the bold
ones. I think that's why we might

have gone off earlier too. But
when you came down those steps, I

was like, I don't I just
feel all my all I did was have

my heart feel for you, and
I'm going to tell you one of the

things that I recognized from being an
innocent in a way in pop culture.

What I consumed by People's response when
I said that Carol Bastand was going to

be on dancing with the stars was
an immediate diatribe of how many things I

needed to know about you that I
didn't know, or their point of view

or their opinion, and I do
hear that. You say that the diggers

are the victims and I wholeheartedly am
behind everything that you do for them.

I just want to get some to
some other stuff. How you I I

believe that being in that infamous moment
and famous moment that you are in,

has a challenge to you that goes
above and beyond and it is about being

a human being and how you are
received. How are you feeling about yourself,

your husband, the place where you
spoke about your wanting your daughter to

be able to have her friends see
your mother in the light that she deserves

to be seen, which, by
the way, you were and you were

glorious. How are you feeling about
your ability to be seen for you,

Carol, and not just you Tiger
Queen? Well, I I appreciate that.

I don't really have a huge concern
for how I'm perceived, and so

that why I didn't demonstry. I
get that, but I do appreciate the

fact that it did really start to
change the narrating out there. And so,

even though my daughter still to this
day will not talk to the press

or even we have a show that
is actually going to be showcasing the kind

of work that we do and she
doesn't even want to talk to them because

she felt so betrayed by the producers
of Tiger King, and so I feel

bad for her heart that. You
know, she has this feeling of total

distrust for anybody in the media and
I think the only way to ever help

her overcome that is to show her
that, you know, by being willing

to put yourself out there. No
matter what people are saying, that eventually

the truth will come to light,
and so that's my hope, is that

we can continue this change that I'm
seeing in the way that people are talking

about me. It's still bad,
it's still mostly bad, but it's,

yeah, really as bad as it
was the first which, by a way,

is incredible because I felt the same
thing after dancing with the stars.

It really gave us a platform that
shifted. There was an open it created

an open door in into the conversation
that maybe perhaps is more truthful and fuller.

Well, it reminds you not to
take things that face value, and

I'm curious if, for you,
if you kind of think differently about things

now, if you're presented a story
in a certain way or if you hear

something, are you more inclined to
powered? Jay Howard? Yeah, you

know it doesn't. What's it?
Yeah, if anything we see in any

kind of media now take with a
grain of salts. They will wait a

minute. You know it, because
things tend to get it is it can

be so slanted and so easily slandered. I mean, if you think about

it, what they did there to
Carol would be like if you had a

trial where only the prosecution got to
present right. If that were the case,

every criminal would go to jail.
Nobody would ever want, you know,

because they're not a criminal. You
bring on me, I think.

But, but, I mean,
do you think that Joe with such unique

personality and the people around him,
I mean, I don't even know what

like it? Well, hard it. You describe him. Well, you

were watching it and you were watching
all the people around him and you were

like, what is happening? And
who aren't you know, the people at

the zoo and the his his the
cast of characters that he had around him

were so bizarre are, for lack
of a better word, that it did

draw you in and you are like
what am I watching? And so I

think that you know, are the
is that the culture of the zoo owners?

Is that? Were you not surprised
by the ECCENTRICITY, high love expressions

that book? Good? Yes,
yeah, Huh? What one of the

silver line they're been a couple silver
linings the tiger king, and one of

them was it at least showed people
that the people in this industry, they're

doing this competting, are a bunch
of totally disreputable people. And what's really

exciting to us is since tiger king. One by one these stars are going

down. You've got, you know, Joe Course, was already in jail.

You've got Tim Stark, one of
the worst of the worst, who's

indicted. You've got DUC Antel,
who's the biggest operator left, indicted.

You have jeff low losing his USDA
license and then we kicked him off the

property. There and so and the
Department of Justice has filed an additional civil

suit against them. So one bing. You were awarded that Joe's old zoo

property. Correct. Yes, yes, again, are there way? Is

that happening right now? What already
happened? No, I mean, but

that happened, but that it's a
newish moment that that property has been it

was over the summer, I believe, right over third yeah, Oh,

okay, I love that. You
know dates. I was just coming back

from Hollywood, is we work.
So are there animals that that you inherited

through that that you'll be able to
rescue the ones that he left? There

were three Tigers, eleven wolves and
two bears and they all went to a

large sanctuary in Colorado, which was
much closer. Can you, can you

explain quickly for the people listening,
the difference between a sanctuary and a zoo,

because I think that was another thing
that the show showed was that,

you know, it showed Joe's facility
and then they showed a tiny little portion

of your facility. But if you
go and see on your website you have

this aerial where it's just a beautiful
sanctuary. So just can you explain the

difference between what a zoo does and
what a sanctuary does, because I think

that's an important thing for people to
understand. I know when she looks at

me it means talk, ha ha. The way I define a sanctuary and

is is if you don't do any
of what I call the five sins,

which is by animals, sell out
animals, allow public contact with the animals,

like the competting, take them off
site or or breathe, then you're

a sanctuary. And the zoos tend
to do all of those things. And

the other difference tends to be in
the level of animal care. I mean,

you know we have a state of
the art hospital we give enrichmond.

I once asked Joe in a deposition. We asked him, well, do

you give the animals in Richmond which
is the things you do to entertain them

and make their life more interesting,
because of the while they'd be constantly challenge

and we do. We move,
make all kinds of treats for them and

do all kinds of things to keep
them entertained at active mentally and visically.

Joe's answer was, well, we
change the balls once a week. Wes,

they remember made these his animals.
His animals were sitting in most of

them, in small, little rectangular
barren boxes with nothing to do all day

long. It would be like if
we locked you in your bathroom. Well,

and they're incredibly expensive to take proper
care of correct oh yeah, I

mean we spend three and a half
million dollars a year here. What are

your plans right now with the property? I want to know a couple of

things from you, Carol, because
I'd like to know what the winds were

along the way when you had the
discipline and practice to continue to speak your

voice. So, because it had
to be draining. The the big cat

public safety ad passed in two thousand
and three. We had been working on

that since one thousand nine hundred and
ninety eight, and so what that did

was it made it illegal to sell
big cats across state lines as paths.

But you said big cat safety.
Have you meant Captain While let Satya?

Oh, I'm sorry, yeah,
the Captain Wild, I say the act,

and there were loopholes in it.
So ever since two thousand and three

we've been trying to close those loopholes. And ever since two thousand and eleven,

how he has been on the phone
with a group of what we call

the big cat alliance, which is
groups of or the Yep, because I

should know it's not, as we
have two alliance as one US for sanctuaries

one. I don't know how you
keep your life straight with what while the

different things you have going on.
So, Huh, you call it the

coalition recalling. Okay, involves you
see how, but I just so how

long we get along? I can
correct her without getting slapped. There was

no shut up. We evolved in
our relationships. I would like to ask,

but the the if there were several
moments that you said got I know,

I know what we're doing, I
know it's right and I'm going to

keep moving forward no matter what,
what I'm being told or what anybody thinks.

Well, that was the case.
I mean, as we got the

law passed and then as we've been
able to close the loophole and we got

this year. Just a couple weeks
ago we had a hearing in the House

on our federal build that would ban
the cup handling and face out private possession,

and we passed the house with the
two thirds majority. So all of

those have been things that they've told
us. We are definitely on the right

path. We were so hoping that
the Senate would take action before they went

to recess, but that didn't happen, so we'll have to start again next

year, but we're starting with having
already passed the house, so that's a

huge, huge I mean we've never
been the smart before. And and the

issue with cub petting and photos being
taken is that people think that they would

want them as pets and then they
take them in as pets and realize they

can't and then there's nobody to care
for the animals and that's when you have

to come in. Is that correct? Well, that's part of it,

but the biggest thing is they have
to have a new set of cubs every

month or so because by the time
they get to be twelve to sixteen weeks

old. They can take a finger
off of a small child, and so

they're constantly breeding cubs and we know
that they're producing over two hundred cubs every

year for people to pay to add
the pictures wet. There's nowhere for those

cups to go and so they do
end up, some as pets, some

at breeding mills where they're constantly bread
and their cups are taken from them.

But the biggest thing is that they
are ending up in the illegal trade for

their parts and that is what's causing
the extinction of the tiger in the mild

and how he has really worked on
this with the state departments that you want

to tell them what you did.
Yeah, you know, the two issues

that are obvious are the animal welfare
that comes into miserable life and then they

end up in miserable commissions, and
public safety or first Respondi or safety where.

I mean there was an incident where
firefighters in Ohio came to a house

and a tiger jumped out of the
house and leaked over the firefighters. They

managed to get it into a squad
car where it tour the thing apart and

you know, they were just lucky
no one was hurt. So those are

obvious. Well, it's not so
obvious to people is that there are certain

Asian countries, China included. They
want to legalize the trade in Tiger parts

and what are called Tiger Derivatives,
things you make from tigers. That what

tiger bomb is tiger and tiger bomb
tiger bone wine. You know, these

alleged medicinals or alleged after easy acts, and they what? They argue that

if they are allowed to raise tigers
on farms and slaughter them, then they

would supply the market and there would
be no poaching. But the opposite is

true, for two reasons. One
is is just cheaper to poach a tiger

than it is to raise one for
a couple of years, and secondly,

the wild tiger is always going to
curse be perceived as the premium market.

So if you expand the market,
you're going to expand that portion that wants

the premium product tiger. If that
is allowed, the tiger will be extinct

in five years. And the when
the US goes to at these international conventions

where these decisions are made and tries
to get other countries to align with us

to resist this, the Chinese correctly
say, at least we know where our

tigers are. You guys don't even
know where yours are because they're in these

back yards. And until late two
thousand and nineteen they had never caught anybody

exporting tiger parts because you know,
when things got into the country we do

at least some kind of spot checking
for them. There's no checking on the

way out, they assume, at
the other end. So the only way

they can catch somebody on the way
out is with a tip. And finally

they got one at Quart, a
guy in New Jersey or New York shipping

sixty eight boxes of tiger parts,
skulls and other things might will work,

to Thailand the cell. So we
know now that at least some of it

is going overseas. I mean it's
so overwhelming your knowledge of this it's incredible.

There are so many questions. How
can I ask how many tigers you

have on your property right now?
We have ten. You have Ted and

he's there a plant. What it? What is the plan for your do

you have a plan for expansion?
What are you looking at with with the

new property and the Vision for where
you are going with your sanctuary? We

actually made a decision early on when
how we first started working with me in

two thousand and two we sat down
with kitchen table and did the strategy of

you know, how are we going
to attack this plant, this problem attack,

and we had a hundred and fifty
big cats. Right now we have

fifty three, and so a lot
of those have died of old age because

they were from huge for a farm
rescues that we did where there was like

fifty six stats and then twenty eight
cast so what we decided to do was

we were never going to be able
to rescue our way out of it and

we decided what we really needed to
do was stop the flood of these animals

into private possession, which is primarily
the cut petting, and so that's where

we have focused our attention and our
resources, is to ending the problem at

its root. It needs to be
that we'd have to turn away hundreds of

cats every year. But as we've
worked with this coalition and they have passed

laws state by state, then we've
seen the number of those big cats that

are being discard and dropping to the
point where now the sanctuary community, the

legitimate credited SAC wor community, is
actually able to take on the influx of

the animals that are coming from these
places that are closing down, and so

we really don't need to dedicate our
resources to expanding or building more cages.

We finish this those mission of flood
and crouphimently the work you're doing. The

hope would be that you would kind
of put yourself out of business in some

way, right, ha ha ha. That's all. That's a really cool

thank you. We didn't have to
say it for once. It's tired of

always talking about cats. Sorry,
I know you're going to ask a serious

question, but is there what do
you have other hobbies? He does.

Well, Howard, how did you
get into this? It were you did?

Were you? Did you get into
this through Carol or did you have

a interest in big cats? Well, actually, at the time I met

Carol there were only three employees,
so it was not that hard to sleep

my way right to the top.
Ha Ha ha, you dog. Well,

back back. We won't spend too
much more time on Joe, but

did you even know him, like
personally, or had you met him,

or did this? Was this just
sort of a few that because he was

obsessed with you. I've never had
a conversation with Joe and he started the

the way that we ran into each
other was in two thousand and four there

was a newspaper article about a deformed
lion cub that was born at his facility

and he was calling himself a sanctuary
back then, and so I talked to

the reporter and I said sanctuaries don't
read animals, so that's not a sanctuary

if they're breeding animals. Well,
he took huge offense at that and just

for the next fifteen years did everything
he could the silence me, including trying

to pay people to kill me over
the years, and people would call me

up and say he tried out her. My husband tried to why he went.

One of the reasons he went to
prison was that that was and just

a fifteen year long thing, not
like he saw tiger game. What was

a five minute right, and then
he got caught and they set up.

I mean all of that is just
absolutely crazy. He had been trying to

kill me for a very long time. Well, I just have to say

I'm sorry because I certainly don't think
I'd like to live in a life wherese

I know that somebody is trying to
kill me and any too bad about him

or he'll like send. Well then, but go and go back out of

you. We want to help protect
you. He's not even offering very much

money, which was the other like
were you piss like a threat, grand

word, grand on my life.
Lucky that it wasn't just a six pack

in a baggy of blow right.
I did get to meet Joe. We

went through two mediations and a number
of depositions and the one, you know,

sort of humorous moment was we were
in a deposition and Joey posted all

of these, you know, just
horrible, sexually oriented, I mean really

disgusting things about Carol and occasionally about
me and and so our attorney was sitting

with Joe showing him one after the
other. Say Did you show post this?

Go, yeah, we did you
do this? He was she is

it? Yeah, and so we
took a break. We both end up

getting a bottle of water the same
time and he looks at me and he

says nothing personal. Wow, what? But I was always civil with him.

I didn't let any of it you
know. I always felt the best

thing to do was take the high
road and just be professional. So I

was always courteous to him. There
was no glaring or any of that.

He even said, you know,
Howard was always nice to me. That

did he did? He Wear Weird
outfits to his depositions, everything more his

best tshirts usually. Okay, this
what I mean. What what do you

think ultimately drove him like did?
Could he start? Pardon me, he

had a desperate need for attention.
Okay, I mean, think about it.

To go and even more than money
was was so this was a dream

for him to have this show and
then get locked away. Well, the

locked away part wasn't the goal.
The irony of it that ironic that he

he's gotten the thing he wanted and
can't take advantage of it. So,

Carol, how did you find your
connection? But to to these big cats?

What is what is it that you
connected with that is carried this relationship

to the sanctuary for you? Since
I was eight years old, Michael has

been to end the use an Asia
of healthy cats and kittens and shelters through

aggressive spay and neuter programs. And
in one thousand nine hundred and ninety two,

when my late husband and I were
at a auction, I had done

bobcat Rehab and release since I was
seventeen years old. But I was then

thirty one or thirty two and we
were at an auction buying llamas, and

the guy came in with a podcat
on a leash that had been as wife's

pet and she was six months old
and she wasn't a good pat anymore because

as soon as they've become adults they're
spraying all over the house and attacking everybody.

And so this guy next to me
starts bidding honor and I leaned over

and I said, when that cat
grows up, she is going to tear

your face off, and he said, I'm a taxidermist, I'm just going

to call her in the head in
the parking lot make a den decoration out

of her, and I had exactly
that same response if I burst into tears.

And so we can have that pobcat. And then that led us to

three four farm rescues where we brought
in fifty six bobcats and links and then

twenty eight podcats and legs and then
twenty two bobcats and legs, and people

started saying which take my line,
which take my tigers, and each one

of those iively thought, I can
fix this and then I can get back

on path. For what I wanted
to do and it's taken twenty eight years,

so it's taken me a lot longer
to get to where we are.

I thought we'd be there by now, but we're getting close now. So

my goal is that once we fix
this big cat problem and the big cats

in the wilder safely on their recovery
route, that I can actually go back

to you working to save domestic cats
and kittens from being killed in shelters,

and how we will find a way
to retire and ignore the fact that I'm

working on that. I hope it's
a much number five, a hard gate

to retire from, because there's a
lot of trust I can do it.

Yeah, I have faith in you. Let's just won't bring the domestic ass

on with me. Right, we're
better. And how about no thanks,

yes please, and do for us
this year, or more of less of

a powards out? Yeah, we
never get never again in more of yeah,

no thanks. Yes place, I
think for no thanks. It's absolutely

no thanks to any pictures of anybody
touching a wild animal. And as far

as yes, please, I would
say more of people caring about what happens

to our planet. I think Mother
Nature has sent us all ware rooms in

two thousand and twenty two. Consider
the wretched relationship we have with wildlife,

and I hope the good that comes
out of that is that we all come

out with an appreciation of this planet
and all of the wonderful things that we've

been missing because we fell so poorly
with what we've got. And I'm very

relieved because I was afraid she was
going to say more sex. Let's talk

briefly, just so we can get
it out of the way for the people

listening, about your ex husband and
how the show sort of took a left

turn with that. I found it
to be interesting. Well, I don't

know what would you like to say
on that, and then I just have

a couple of questions. The only
thing I know is what he said to

me that morning, and he said
that he was going to go Sta Rica

the next day with a box truck
and he wanted that thing ready to go.

And then a couple days later we
found his van at the airport and

he had been flying for years without
a license. He had crashed three times.

He crashed into the Gulf once,
he crashed by not putting the landing

gear down. Once you, ever, did anything with him. I was

not on the plane with him on
any of his crashes. Were the last

crash? Wait, what? I'm
sorry. What way in the last crash

was the last crash? Was In
trying to outrun a hurricane and he ran

into some power lines. But you
did get in the plane with him at

one point, ever, did you? Ever? I used to fly with

him and what I saw was as
soon as he would get up in the

air, he would just go sleep
and I was scared to death that if

he didn't wake up or something happened, we were going to crash, or

if he did something stupid, we
were going to crash. And so I

started taking flight lessons and I spent
my entire time and Flight Training Doing Takee

Take Offs and landings where I would
take off and then kill the engine and

come in for an emergency landing and
at the very last minute turn the power

back on so that I could recover
from a stall. I should recover from

slipping at plane over. Uphold me, no one. Do you like six

day, seven nights houred? I
mean, come on, I'm just imitating

Carol and the movie Carol. You're
tougher than you look. I gotta say

like that's his hot beds. So
the so the Flower Halo has a bet

of, you know, a rose. But so what do you think happened

to because the fact that his van
was found at the airport and I know

he had been trying to buy an
ultra light. One of the things that

he would do is fly out over
the Gulf because he had no license,

he had to stay under radar,
which is two hundred feet. And if

you're out there over the Gulf,
because it's flat and so there's not all

of these updrafts and down dress and
you're flying at two hundred feet, if

you if you screw up, you
can't recover it two hundred feet. I

would go at the fifteen hundred feet
to do these these practice crashes. You

couldn't recover it two hundred feet.
And so I really feel like that's what

happened. He just went out there
screwing around and went down and we just

haven't found the wreckage. If it
had been anything on land, surely we

would have found something. Is there
hope that they would still find the wreckage,

because boy, that would give closure
to a lot of people. So

sure every time we have a hurricane
I'm always like, I sure hope something.

Yeah, well, one of the
things too, that I found interesting

when I delled in a little bit
with was, you know, the your

real estate background and how, you
know, it seemed like you really had

a mind for business and real estate
and that you really built up the business.

And it occurred to me that,
you know, everybody was saying that

he had the MIDAS touch and with
such a money maker and and you were

actually working behind the scenes, and
it seemed like such a sexist moment in

our world where people just assumed that
the man was the one, you know,

that was that was creating all that, you know, those good deals,

and when in fact you were a
big part of that. It's really

my own undoing, because I always
wanted to be the power behind the throne

and I wanted him to take all
the glory and him to be able to

feel good about himself and he loved
having cash in his pockets and everything that

I did I did to try and
make him look good. And so,

you know, it's no wonder that
people would say you just had the MIDAS

touch. I don't know how he
did it. It's like, yeah,

the reason he did it because he
didn't do it. Well, I kiss

you, he can't explain it and
I'm just standing back here. And why?

I do think it's incredible because it
is sex, as they think,

on the flip flip side of being
a woman who also has been in always

in the position of going, if
I can just build him up enough,

then he'll like me enough, to
love me enough and we can start having

a good time. Well, you're
absolutely right. Another issue relative a Tiger

Gang, which is I really think
a lot of the audience reaction was a

matter of misogyny. You know,
here is this woman not only battling but

successfully battling and beating always tough men, and I think clear maybe be a

lot of people who washed you couldn't
handle that. That's a boy being.

Well agreed. I think we're up
against that in a society that says that

we are battling but of them we're
winning any battle with equality, and it's

all beseeming that we're all in the
same place and haven't learned very much from

history and and and what we should
be learning and gaining from it. But

you have a question. I know, no, I mean now, I

mean I just keep going back to
so when the when the show aired,

and then I'm sure you saw on
social media, you know, people had

long signs and things that like,
you know, Carol did it, or

to Carol, you know our team
Carol or two. You know that.

That when all of that just and
it was just a bunch of board people

stuck at home in Covid that just
created this this narrator's jump on carrol.

I mean honestly, that like when
you think of Covid at least in America,

it was the tiger king in the
beginning. Like it, the two

were so connected. But what was
that like when you saw, apart from

the show, how all of that
sort of and what was that like for

your daughter, because it was probably, you know, I can imagine that

it was difficult for everybody involved.
And how did you how did you get

through that? And how do you
get through that? And do you feel

it changing? Do you feel it
shifting now? I do feel it changing,

and neither my daughter nor my mother
have even watched tiger game. So

I think the memes are probably even
weirder to them like what I'm write right

at about, because you can't escape
the means. Those things are everywhere.

Yeah, and you're right that covid
and tiger game were so tied together,

because we had to shut our gates
on March the fifteen due to covid fifty

coding, and five days later tiger
came came out. So it was like

that was like the first plaint ever, oh my Gosh, and you know

shutting our gates and that we were
losing a million dollars a year in the

revenue from the tours. So it
was a really painful time. We had

that fire half of my staff,
which means those of us that are left

or working twice as hard. You
know, and all of our people have

always been so proud of big cat
rescue and so proud to wear their logos

out in public because people would come
up to them and talk to them about

big cats and that gave them the
opportunity to talk about what they loved.

And now they were being attacked by
people who were coming up to them and

saying things like did she do it, and how could you work for that

murderer, and just horrible things to
them to where they were afraid to even

go out wearing their logos. We
had to take the signs off of our

cars and it's just it was three
months and just absolutely from now. But

after that title wave things really started
to change and what we found now is,

I mean I have not run in
to anybody who was mean. People

have been, you know, friendly
and enthusiastic, and Carol the same thing.

She rides her bike to and from
work and people stop and want a

Selfie. We drove out to Oklahoma
to deal with the lamb there. So

you know, we had to go. funnything that. Well, we were

we were in Ardmore and Carol had
to go into the supermarket, the course

with their masking shield and people are
a selfie and then with facebook they started

passing it down. Pretty soon all
of ardmore new, but the BASSROOMS are

here. I mean it's I mean
actress free, or so. You're used

to being famous. You know we're
not. This is just so weird.

So it was all over town.
My windshiel start cracking, so we had

to windshield shop and they were just
thrilled to see us. Everybody had to

get, you know, a picture
with Carol, of course six feet away.

So and we had one funny incident
in the hotel we were. You

know how when you're at the DOORBOTEL, and you're fumbling with the key.

Yes, two young men, you
know, probably thirty ish. They walk

by as it was kind of like
in the movies. They walk by,

they take about three more steps and
they go looking trying to figure out could

it be yes, yes, it
is. A little while it was.

Knock on the door. Carol opens
the door and it's one of the wives

saying I told him he was a
wire, that you couldn't possibly be here.

Could I do so? Because so
really, you know, people been

very nice. We have a we
have a UNMENDED reality store in the mall

that they donated to us with no
rent to you know, and you can

go in there and show your phone
and it'll play the videos and and and

get out the message. And Caroline
over to check on it and just mommed

with people who just wanted a picture
and you know, they're very positive.

So I didn't tell you. I
went back yesterday with my daughter because we

needed to pick up some really heavy
stuff and I needed her help and she

said stay in the back and I
was like why and she said because there's

all these people lined up out front. They've seen you and they know you're

here, and I said they're here
for me and she said no, mom,

they are here to talk at you. There is a difference. Well,

speaking of Gawking, when when you
went to Joe Exotics Zoo after it

was now you know yours. What
was that like? Did you was it

you walk? You were able to
just walk around and go in his did

he live on the property? Were
you able tell us about that cardboard cut

out? Come out with a key? You could barely breathe for the stench

of cat urine because these cats were
kept in such small spaces that they just

peed in the same spot over and
over and over again, and even though

the cats have been gone for over
a month by the time we were there.

And that was your first time ever
going to the property, right?

Was that the first time you ever
went to the property for me and not

for him? Okay, so the
stench, I mean, I mean that's

your footage, is overwhelming and walking
around, and I mean I had been

there once before under a corridor when
the animals were there, but had been

years, like six years ago,
and just walking around and looking at these

tiny barren cages and thinking about the
misery of these animals. So it was

this weird mix of of just sadness
over that and yet, you know,

joy of the closure, of just
shutting this awful I mean it was kind

of like, if you can imagine
what it was like when they went and

closed to concentration camps in Germany.
And then, yeah, it was that

kind of a feeling of how sad
and yet thank God it's over. And

so all that it did. He
lived on the property. Yes, how

is that? Well, semi destroyed
and stuff spewed all over it. I

mean the people his former partner,
jeff low and Lauren low, are are

just as despicable as joe and vicious. And so, you know, the

place was trashed and they had even
put stuff so that you couldn't even hardly

walk in intentionally, like put rights
in places and right graffiti. And before

he left they just spewed meat all
over the property, stinking. I mean

the neighbors were the first love that. So we had to spend money getting

somebody to clean up, which was
crops and cleans that up. whoad graffiti

on every wall. I mean they
didn't have time to get the cats out

in time. You know, lift
this with cats because he's soaked incompetent and

why. And while they were trying
to move the cats out, one of

the lions escaped. Ended up they
had to the police had to surround the

place. The Sheriff, Shaff Mola, was great. They had to surround

the place. Wow, incompetence didn't
have the tranquilizing medication and so our people

who were there had to go to
of it get the tranquilizers so they could

avoid shooting this cat. So I
mean these are just all whole awful people

were better together with that and head
we are going to drop in to in

the moment. In the moment,
this is for heather. For me,

lines and tires and bears all my
facing our fear maybe the most unifined conundrum

that bonds us as a society.
It defines, perhaps encapsulates, our common

denominator and drives the engine of civilization
as we know it. More than any

other unified emotion. Do Create,
build, prove, indoor, etc.

Is the exact statute of limitations.
When it's flip side, it is not

engaged with its active choices. The
we that work, the we we see

in another every time we make contact
outside ourselves, the world abroad, the

world near the world here, you
plus me. My in the moment today

is both a reflection and acknowledgement,
statement and call to action appropriate, I

feel, for an entrance of a
New Year, two and twenty one.

If you made it here, you
won the battle. Many lost. Yet

we have not been overcome. The
newspaperings, reporter sings may hum a different

tune. The truth is up to
you to decide. The question begged.

On which side do you reside?
I am alone, ranger, friend,

you all known by few, probably
just like you. To be recognized has

become a prize rather than guide one
to another on our equal and opposite journeys,

Yours for you, me for mine. Meeting in the middle called sublime.

There's no greater moment than now.
That's why it's called the present.

It's ours to open, waiting under
the tree or once a dradle's spun with

Glee. Our next moment is free, open to our interpretation and the sharing

of its gift with others if we
so choose. I choose to share my

moment my Christmas Eve with a woman
who taught me that love is free and

boundless and has not even one percent
fear in it's give. Heather has taught

me to one better fear and conquer
its shadow with light and truth and the

funny honey we get to share with
you. Seeing one another can't be found

in a box, nor under tree. It's found in the recognition the moment

we agree is the moment I see
you and the moment I see me marry

Christmas. Okay, I can't possibly
rebut that so, so cheers, Dude.

I love you. Do you feel
like it is now? I'm I

heard you say how it did that
that I'm looking at the positive side of

this has been a bit of a
closure. How this New Year is coming

into be. Do you have some
peace that you're there is a portion of

the work that has been done in
it is it has been done correctly?

Yes, although I mean that's part
of it, but the big part is

what Carol mentioned earlier, the Federal
Bill passing the house. There's no way

I can tell you how huge that
is because it's so tease us up for

this next session. I'm you know, I'm really convinced the bill will pass

in two thousand and twenty one,
and that the you know, that will

be the end of the cup heading
and gradually the end of tigers and backyards.

It will just avoid so much misery. So that was you know,

when people have asked me about any
twenty I say it's like the tale of

two cities, the best of times
and the worst of times. The good

news is the best of times came
at the end. The worst of times

was at the beginning. What can
people do to contact their their congressperson?

Who Do you contact to show your
support for that? How can people listening

help with that? The passage of
that? It's very easy, easy to

remember. You Url big cat actcom
and we make it very easy there.

We've got a system where you check
something from your cell phone, it will

dial your representatives and we have a
little script there, because what happens in

these offices is there's just a person
sitting at the front desk counting how many

people call for and how many call
against. Okay, we have made over

thirtyzero phone calls to Congress through that
system, which is a part of the

progress the bill has made. The
other big thing has been endorsements from law

enforcement, from the National Sheriff's Association, the Fraternal Order of police, individual

sheriffs around the country, because these
are people who have to go to these

homes not knowing if they're going to
be confronted by a tiger or you have

the the you know, the the
Terry Thompson situation, where he let out

fifty six big carnivores and and police
send to shoot them all, and some

of those as are still suffering ptsd
from from that experience. I can think

how awful it is that's there and
do that and it was just horrible to

see the images of all these dead
animals laying around. And he was one

of these private owners with no USDA
license. And we don't changes with USDA

and US Fish and Wildlife Service too, because we've always taken the position that

these things should have been illegal from
the beginning. The Animal Welfare Act should

be preventing people from taking these cubs
away from their mothers and tormenting them the

way they do. And the US
Fishing Wildlife Service, you know, with

transferring these gats across state lines and
all that's been happening there. And so

I think because of all of the
public pressure that is on them out they're

taking up a harder stance against that
sort of thing. So I think even

if our bill weren't around. I
think that the whole cut petting thing is

now done. I can't imagine anybody
in their right mind going out there and

Offering Cup petting right now to see
whether or not the Jay on right right.

No New People most likely. You
know, some of the existing operators

are still operating, but it's you
know, these kind of changes in social

thinking happened very slowly. I wrote
an article that was picked up by Encyclopedia

Britannica making a metaphor between women suffrage
and the awareness of exotic animal issues and

animal issues. And you know,
people forget that it's only a hundred years

ago that women got the vote,
right literally, and they also forget that

movement started in eighteen, fifty and
four years. You know, kind of

goes like this and you have a
small band of crazy's battling and being thrown

in jail. You know, Carol
was one of those twenty five years ago,

and then you start to see it
turn up and then you see it

go exponentially, and that's what happened. You had one state give women the

right to votes and then a couple
others. If you look at the use

of fur in the S, one
designer finally said, you know what,

I'm not using fur, and it
was like three years later than another designer

and then another, and now there's
a list of like forty of them,

and the you know, the people
who have not taken that position are the

outliers, they're the minority, and
so what we're seeing now with the Cup

petting and and the, you know, ownership of these animals, we're like

this and we're just thrilled to be
there on this you know, exponentially growing

awareness of this issue. Well,
I think one of the reasons why we

identified with Carol so much in the
in the story, it's kind of what

you just said. It takes one
person, you know, to slowly make

the move and and you know,
and back in the S, kind of

did that when she dated Ellen and
was open about that and and kind of

started that that movement to make it
so today it's not, you know,

a blip on the radar if a
woman was going to take a woman as

a date to her movie premiere.
So it's kind of a I think you

guys are similar in your and your
crusading. I wonder, I wonder if

that's a compliment to me, by
the way, carrel deb do, but

but also, I mean what it
I'm sure you never imagined this year to

be what it was, dancing with
the stars, the show, and and

it wasn't easy. But now that
it's done and the show aired in the

way it aired, do you think
that it brought more attention to your cause?

And and and would you change it? Because if you change it,

would you still have the attention to
your mission that you have? I wouldn't

change a single thing that has happened
in my wretched life, because everything led

me to this moment where, I
mean, we celebrate that. That is

not an easy thing to say and
no know what that know what you mean

by that, but that's really cool. How about you, our but we

all agree on everything, anything,
and and I think that tiger king could

have been just as successful if it
portrayed Joe as the awful person that he

is and if it portrayed carol as
a heroine that she is. And so

I think it was a huge opportunity
lost to to not be more explicit about

the animal issues and portrayed people correctly
but unbalanced. You know, has had

these huge silver linings. The in
terms of building the awareness. So yeah,

I would rewrite the script. Other
words, you know, did you

watch it? I'm curious because I
binged it. I think I watched it

and in an, I think you
and everybody else in America. Did you

guys watch it? And then,
yeah, because we've ended deadly what we

were then, when you were done, like who was your first what did

you do when you finished watching it? Like what? Because at that point

you didn't know what we were.
moved to the bucket from the floor.

But like, did you have any
sense? And then how did it?

I'm just curious about that, like
the bail. Like so you watch it

and then how do you feel the
way that's about to come over? Well,

I don't think we immediately realize because
I guess we had more faith in

people. I had no idea there
could be, you know, a hundred

thousand or more people in this country
who would watch something like that and then

either go online or find our phone
numbers and start calling leaving awful, nasty

messages or things that they thought were
clever, you know, like run Howard,

run on my phone. Happen immediately. It did. And you know,

when we first watched it, at
the end, we just sat there

looking each other and saying, yeah, that was a missed opportunity. And

then my phone started ringing and my
phone rang every two minutes for three months

straight, and it was, I
mean around the clock, and it was

people, mostly men, with just
these horrorfically of scene threats against my life,

my family's life. They wanted to
kill the cats and you know,

once I could kind of catch my
breath from that and talk to some of

these people, I'd ask him,
you know, why do you want to

kill the cats? And they'd say
because you have them in cages and you're

just like Joe, and it's like, okay. Well, people came away

from watching that with a really skewed
idea of what sanctuaries are and why we

have cats engages, and so that's
why I felt like there's so many of

these people that feel so passionately that
maybe we can turn this around, because

that seemed to be the vast majority
of people coming away with just a misconception

from what they had seen. It
didn't matter so much what they thought about

me that they just didn't understand the
whole rightew and tigers in the wild and

tigers and captivity. And so we
felt like this was an opportunity to educate

people, and the slip side of
it was just incredible amounts of support from

people who knew us, whether it
was messages or me. And I worry

what's going to happen to our donations, and they're actually up this year.

You know, people who normally donated
a hundred dollars would send in two hundred

with a notice same. Screw those
guys. So you know, we,

you know are dotors, knew that
this was all nonsense and with so many

of them out, they're telling us. Everybody I meet who says something negative,

I'm saying, wait a minute.
So there's there's this kind of grassroots

effort that's gradually turning things around and
and we have our social media staff,

who also volunteers as network, who
are very good at, you know,

taking the ones that you can talk
to and saying wait a minute, and

so many of even apologize and said
I'm sorry, I said something nasty because,

you know, I believe this nonsense. So I think that's what's now

the growing trend. But there's not
more and more people watching tiger king and

coming away negative. You haven't seen
it by now, if you're one of

the three people in the country right
you know you're not going to watch it.

But but the opposite wave, you
know, the slow with Jodo,

if the title wave came in,
well, it kind of goes out more

slower. So that little bird from
down is is you know that Carol's image

is being gradually restored and there are
some things, some film things, that

were working on that I think will
foster that dancing with a good you know,

point in doing that. So more
and more people are going, wait

a minute, we've been duked and
I hope they will be mad about it

and we'll see what these idiots do
with the o season two. You know,

they can either do some redeem mean
redeeming of themselves or they can dig

themselves into a bigger, bigger hole
and be known as bigger liars than they

already are. They have footage of
you that they can still use for season

two. Well, they could use
the old footage. They're certainly not going

to get any new footage. Yeah, ha ha. I I want to

say that I believe, and having
been merged with you as as a fighter

and in trying to create change,
and both of you creating change, that

your ability to withstand the difficulty that
came with this is why there is change

and and it for it to be
seen in such conflict. Is How you

rose to the occasion to be able
to bring the truth to light, and

I can't men don't respect anything more. So I thank you for that and

and the I would like to ask
the with there is anything that you would

like to say to those sixty four
million viewers that maybe would have liked them

to have left with rather than what
they might have been otherwise? You know,

for me it's really all about the
cats and if we don't do what's

necessary right now to save the tiger, by stopping the private possession and facing

out the private possession and ending the
cup handling, the tiger is going to

die off in the wild in the
next five years. I can't imagine a

world without tigers and I think if
people knew how close we are to losing

them in the wild, they would
absolutely say no to any kind of competting

or anybody sharing any of those kinds
of images. In fact, on December

twenty six there is a real movie
about saving tigers in the wild called hidden

tiger that'll be coming out and we
were persistant in that for five years as

well. But we've actually seen the
final product on this and it is excellent.

All right, well, do it
then we will all be a thrill

to watch that on the twenty sixth
of December. That's on video, because

it's like a three dollar thing to
buy, you know, and that has

your stamp of approval. So if
we want to see some of the truths,

you give the thumbs up. Okay, how our I respect. Would

you want to say something different to
those sixty four million people that watch tiger

king and took away from it what
they were served? No, I will,

I will just go, but Carol
says, you know, there's there's

no I think over time more and
more people will see through the bad stuff

there and get the positive message that
Carol just gave. You. Right do

you? This was a hard thing
for you both to go through, and

usually when you go through this that
kind of shows your true character. I'm

just curious from each of you what
you learned about each other that was something

you didn't know before, about their
resilience, or they're well, Spirit,

power love. You're very different.
See, we joke that not only would

no computer have ever matched us,
up, but we've met younger in life,

we probably would not have any interest
in each other. So, but

Carol, I learned a lot from
Carol. I tend to be the one

who gets more nervous and upset and
you're anxious about things and stressed. And

Carol, I mean a way.
She has, oddly, the benefit of

having so much adversity in her life
early on, which I did not.

I mean I had some, but
nothing compared to her. But she has

a wonderful philosophy, which is things
are happening in the way they're supposed to

and it'll work out for the best. And there are times I have to

tell you where I'm like this and
I just sit down and repeat that self

might to myself. And so during
the whole three months, you know,

we just said, all right,
this is happening for a reason, it's

got to be a good reason and
it'll workout, and it is working out.

The other thing is, if you
look at the bottom of her emails,

the line she has there, I
love that line. Is like a

Franklin Roosevelt, I think line.
Judge me by the enemies I make.

So, Carol, at one point
when somebody was being nasty to her when

she was doing one of her lives. Said, you know what, I'm

proud to have you as an enemy. Stealing it, stealing sor right here,

girl, that is such a God
one. You guys are clearly better

together, yes, and we are, hear, so happy to have you

as are as our comrades in our
in our better together beginning of something that

is is our partnership in doing this
into have you be joining us for a

conversation on Christmas Eve on the in
a moment where everyone has gone through an

awful lot this year and we are
trying to hopefully open open the doors of

communication that say look at all of
who we are, not parts of who

we are. Taking what the media
says about others and don't take it as

what is true. Share with others
what's in your heart and your soul and

in your eyes and be true.
I'm so happy to say happy holidays to

you and I hope you two have
such a beautiful and Magic Hall Time Celebrating

What you've gone through this year,
and I couldn't be more grateful to know

you. Thank you so much.
You guys are so sweet. Happy show.

We all say, just marry Christmas. Happy Holidays They Daddy. Absolutely

you have a favorite Christmas Carol,
Carol, I just recently heard a Christmas

Carol I liked and it was something
like white catsie Christmas. That's our casts

will not be celebrating Christmas this year
under your tree. Want to say Happy

Christmas, Mary. Christmas into all
we celebrate all of the different holidays.

Thank you, Carol and Howard,
for being with us and making us better.

Until next time, everybody, live
in loving kindness and don't be a

Dick. And a big, big
thanks to our better together team. That's

Ryan Tillotson, Sebastian Alacla and you, Elizabeth Gener Oh, thanks Ryan,

and of course, Ann and Heather. Were better together with and
Better Together w/ Anne Heche and Heather Duffy
Anne Heche's BETTER TOGETHER w/ Anne & Heather is a space where guests introduce us to the person that makes them better. For me, that's my friend, Heather, and t... View More




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