Straw media. You pay the wine
price like he is a bottle. If
you wind and told you listen to
my troubles. Welcome to conversations with friends
and strangers. I'm Maggie. I'm
the Lam in the show. We take
a closer look at the complicated relationships
in the Hulu series conversations with friends.
Will meet some of the cast and
crew, chat with experts and share our
own kind of sexy, kind of
uncomfortable, but relatable stories about the messy
relationships we find ourselves in today.
We want to know why are we so
self destructive and how do we grow
past it? Dr C Sue Carter gives
us a scientific explanation for urge to
fail, and natural selection seems counterintuitive,
right then, writer Christine Wiedenbach somehow
makes the image of a burning bridge inspirational.
Obdu and Peter Weiss dispels some myths
about endometriosis, those Pesky and doometriosis
misconceptions, and we learned that twitter
is a pretty powerful tool for getting over
a breakup. Who Know? But
first that's your cap. Francis Asks Nick
about his depression. He tells her
he was hospitalized for six weeks. They
talked about children. He meets her
mom. Francis is diagnosed with endometriosis and
she hides it from everybody. Nichtel's
Francis. He and Melissa started sleeping together
again. Francis ends up going to
Nick's birthday party. She does not handle
herself well. She storms out crying. Actually, Melissa showed body Frances a
short story. There's a confrontation and
Francis freezes. So why couldn't you show
it to me that? And then
Francis and nick meet up at a park
and they break up. Okay,
and Oh, why do we do stupid
things? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why not just be happy
all the time? This is neurobiologist, DR C Sue Carter. Because selfdestructive
tendencies seems so antithetical to survival and
evolution, we figured there must be a
biological explanation. Most of us have
sufficient food, we have shelter. So
what pushes us back into these primitive
states? Whether they be then selfdestructive behaviors,
a kind of behavior that is associated
with socalled borderline symptoms, where person
will cut themselves or use drugs or
alcohol in a selfdestructive way, or even
suicide, which makes not much biological
sense, but which, from an emotional
point of view, may seem at
the moment like the only solution. My
thinking is, and unfortunately we can't
fix this with hormones, but my thinking
is that the old system pushes its
way through under conditions of acute stress.
The main benefit of love when it's
working well as a sense of safety,
not only consciously but also in our
bodies. And the minute the relationship starts
to shift out of safety, maybe
in one partner as unhappy and wants to
leave, these things somehow create a
kind of vacuum in our nervous system and
it's very common for people to try
to fill that chemically with drugs, with
substances, with excitement, anything they
can do to get out of that sense
of loneliness, which has now been
very well established to be one of the
worst things that can happen to people. Feeling alone is a kind of ultimate
sense of of threat and danger,
and that puts our bodies into a different
physiological state, one or we feel
vulnerable, physiological state in which we don't
know, sometimes just don't know what
to do. Our cognitive functions seem to
get a little out of whack and
that that's a huge problem. It's especially
a problem for people who experience lack
of safety in early life. That safety
seems to lay down the foundation and
that foundations based, in my thinking,
on the receptors for oxytocin and bits
of person and you start to see that
system caliber rted. So then when
something happens later, those individuals with what
we might call a band management or
trauma histories are very disruptive. They have
a hard time being by themselves.
Sometimes you'll see what's called borderline personality UPP
here. I don't think that's a
disease. I think that's a state.
But for some people, if you're
in that if you're in that state all
the time, it's very hard to
get it anything done, because your body's
kind in a in a constant state
of uncertainty. Can you tell us a
little bit about your experience with selfdestructive
behavior? Oh my goodness. Well,
you know, get into the right
place. This is writer Christine Wheedenbach.
She actually got her MF and creative
writing at the same place as my mom.
Dead. Part of me thinks it's
boredom or like I know I am
have like I've been diagnosed with bpd, as a creative person. You know
you kind of destruction is kind of
a form of creation. So, you
know, it makes me feel it
one with and one with my element to
you know. So how do you
see it come up in in relationships?
So people will get ever so close
to me and that at some point,
like I maybe rely on them too
much or maybe there's like some sort of
like individualistic thing going on there.
But like I could only get so close
to people before I just like,
let's let's burn this bridge. How could
we burn this bridge? Obviously I
assume some kind of like protection method.
But but obviously you know your sacrifice
a bit in that protection. There's a
reason that you end up doing that
and it's like you have to kind of
deal with the reason before you can
deal with your arson. It's good advice
and it's a very visual phrase to
I'm imagining a poster, you know,
one of those inspirational ones that hang
up in a guidance counselor's office. There's
a picture of a bridge engulfed in
flames and then maybe like block letters or
even Nice cursive that says you have
to deal with your reason before you can
deal with your arson. And how
do you burn those bridges, particularly,
if I may ask, basically becoming
obsessive or jealous or that, because that
could look like a number of different
things with a number of different people right,
kind of like letting the relationships hour
as a means of preserving yourself.
But I'd like I know I've done
like that, you know, way too
many texts, just like total rational
fighting for no reason. I liked that
a lot when I was young.
So where are you at now, like
in in terms of like you're old
own like reflections on, you know,
the way the things have got in
the past and then how you want to
move things forward in the future.
I'm the happiest I've ever been. M
I was able to I was fortunate
enough to lay down some roots. I'm
doing a career that works for me. I'm like achieving my goals and I
kind of like a bit of a
solitary life. I like, I like
people in my life, but I
like them only so much because I'm you
know, I just like being alone
and I like that time is kind of
sacred to me. I like my
life right now. Yeah, that's where
I'm at right now. That's amazing
to hear. I don't think that,
like, I don't think that I
would have recognized myself if I was like
what if I went back and like
my twenty year old Self Sambi today?
I don't think she'd recognize but I
think that in the end I'm glad I
was her, you know, like
it all worked out in the end,
but Dang, I bumps along the
wood. Yeah, and also, like
things continue to work out right,
like you know, things you know at
thirty. I I'm thirty two,
for example, and I know that,
like things are going to continue to
change. weirdly enough, like you know,
I'm I feel much better about where
I am now in my life as
a thirty two year old than I
did as a twenty five year old.
I was a lot more like fucking
totally falls apart, not that I'm not
falling apart every day now, but
stiffer part of frobably a watch less dire
way. And I also stylize now
very you know, doing about I think
it was more stylized back then.
I think it was a lot of effects.
Everything was like hotter back I don't
know, everything was hotter. Yeah,
like, I don't know. I
think about it's like and I was
really doing something exactly, but at
least now it's a little bit, you
know, the this waters a little
shallow, or maybe you know and like
moving forward. I'm like, okay, so I haven't necessarily figured it out,
but I know that, like,
things are going to change. Yeah,
life is so adapted, but just
keeps re creating other ways to make
things work. But I think what
most of us are interested in is some
kind of optimal wife, some kind
of world in which we are not anxious
all the time, in which we
feel some degree of safety, ideally inside
of ourselves. Okay, so that
we can then interact in a healthy way
with other humans. and that's tall
order. That's a hard thing to do,
because we are so well designed to
be on the alert for danger.
Our minds and our bodies are very
strange. Let's take a quick break and
when we come back, a crash
course in endometriosis with Dr Peter Weiss and
a very creative and not destructive way
to cope with heartbreak. Welcome back.
Today we're talking about selfdestructive behavior and
how to go past it, and in
this episode of conversations with friends,
Francis gets a diagnosis that kind of turns
our world upside down. I tell
patients at endometriosis is like real estate.
It's all about location, location,
location. So some people it's debilitating,
others there's no problem at all.
This is Dr Peter Weiss. I'm born
certified obgi in. I graduated the
University of Michigan School of Medicine. The
CO founder of the Rodeo Drive Women's
Health Center. Also, he may or
may not be my uncle. Endometriosis
is a fairly common disorder. It's found
in about ten percent of reproductive age
women. It's ninety nine point plus percent
non malignant and it can cause what
we call this minorrhea, or very painful
periods, heavy periods, pain with
sex and have chronic pain. Really what
it is? It's a little bit
harder to explain, but the lining of
the uterus is called the endometrium.
It's only a few cell layers thick and
that's where those cells are supposed to
live, but when those cells sort of
move out and go to different parts
of the body, that's what we called
endometriosis. And really what endometriosis is
it's an inflammatory response. So it causes
inflammation in those areas and those cells
live. They take the blood supply,
nutrition for whatever part of the organs. They sort of invade into it.
And I've heard that endometriosis is really
hard to diagnose. Why is that so?
First of all, you talking about
microscopic cells, so it's hard to
diagnose things with microscopic cells. There's
no blood test. The old days we
used to diagnose endometriosis doing what's called
a laparoscopy. We stick a tube into
woman's belly and we look, but
it's progressed so far that we no longer
do that. That we can diagnosis
by symptoms and it's somewhat of a diagnosis
by exclusion, even though we do
include certain things. And then we would
treat it, because the treatments are
relatively mild unless you get towards surgery.
So we don't need to do surgery
just to diagnose what we think is there.
And how do you treat it?
Is it's a wide range and is
very simple and sometimes it's just taking
nonsteroidal such as I'd be proven. Another
simple way of doing is birth control
pills. Estrogen and projection pills also work.
The simple things like acupuncture, because
that's pain control. You can do
progester and only pills, no estrogen. There are injections, something called Gnrah
Agon is something like Lupron, which
sort of puts you in a pseudo menopause.
That there are other people which will
which have more patients than me.
And Diet Control. If you eat
foods high in omega, three fatty acids,
they tend to be anti inflammatory,
reducing red meat, increasing fruits and
vegetables. And then here comes the
hardest part, is limiting caffeine and alcohol.
So those do help some benefits but
doesn't work with everyone. So that's
the wide range. And then the
last one is surgery. That's the one
that we usually send to a special
surgeon that meticulously go through the lapses of
those tubes and they peel off the
endometriosis wherever you can. Now remember that's
not curing it, that's just reducing
the amount of endometriosis and hopefully reducing the
pain m so it sounds like all
of the treatment is really just pain management.
Is that accurate exactly? That's sad, but most indometriosis will resolve when
you go into menopause. It doesn't
always go away, but it's much much
better, does does endometriosis resolve on
its own without menopause, or is it
more of a life long experience?
I tend to tell people it's a chronic
illness. They'll be ups and downs
like anything. Anywhere from thirty to fifty
percent of women with endemy shows has
can have fertility issues, but it's I'm
not trying to imply that if you
have in endometrioses you will have a problem.
Again, it's about the locations.
So some endometriosis could be mild and
you have real, significant problem getting
pregnant. You could have significant endometrioses and
have no problem. And if you
think about endometriosis being estrogen dependent, you
have more estrogen over those greater number
of years because the if you have multiple
births you have less chance of endemy
shows has. But remember you're not having
your cycle, you're not having that
estrogen push for those times while you're pregnant,
in nursing, so things like that. So pregnancy can ease endometriosis basically
in some SASS, because it's similar
to if I put you on a pill
the turn off your periods completely.
That's what a pregnancy would do. You're
not getting your periods. HMM,
I'm not so you guys were pregnant.
Now. My uncle definitely told us
to get pregnant. You are over thirty.
I am. But what I really
want to talk about is what the
doctor tells Francis. Have you heard
of Endometrios has, Francis? It's a
condition where cells from inside the US
risk grow elsewhere in the body. These
cells are benign as in their nonconsrous. Both endometriosis is complicated. It's difficult
to diagnose on there's no cure as
such. It's not a common. One
in ten women suffer from it.
There are surgical interventions, but they're only
really necessary and particularly severe cases.
So a focus right now is pain management
and preventing it from becoming debilitating.
There's one other thing right unfortunately, this
can lead to fertility issues for some
women. Right bus, there's much more
we can do about that now.
This really doesn't mean what it used to.
Can I ask if you're trying to
conceive or planning to in the near
future? I mean, that's not
something currently, and so you and I
reacted to this differently, quite differently. I think that this doctor was not
very fair to Francis. To be
fair, in the book it's even worse
when you were in a doctor's office
and you're alone and then you hear your
words like uncurable and pain management and
high risk pregnancies or whatever. I would
be spiraling to. Yeah, I
think that's interesting that you took from that
interaction with the doctor the exact same
thing that Francis did, whereas when I
watched it, I guess maybe because
I'm more familiar with Endometrios's, I was
like, it's okay, it's not
the end of the world, you don't
know anything yet. What I saw
is I my Jewish mother side kind of
came to fight and was like no, Francis, it's okay, she's not
telling you everything. I feel like
there's so many things that she could have
told her that she didn't that I
want to tell Francis, that I think
we should let Dr Weiss Tell Francis. So a true physician is where you
show compassion and caring and not try
to scare the shit out of somebody.
Hell, yes, you are at
a higher risk of having fertility issues,
but it absolutely does not mean you
cannot get pregnant or will not get pregnant.
I every patient comes to me out
of ten patients, one person will
have an easier chance to get him
pregnant than another and some will have a
harder chance. I don't know who
those are. And just because you have
endometriosis doesn't mean you will have a
problem. Do you have any tips for
people talking to doctors about these subjects? What I always told patients and I
teach the residence the patient has to
have all her concerns answer. When ever
I leave a room after I see
a patient and I always ask have I
answered all your questions? The bad
thing is most people will say yes,
yes, even if I haven't.
So I'll do have tell page to look.
If I gave you a lot of
information. Let's say you're the first
time Maggie. You came in.
I told you sadly you have endometriosis and
you have a lot of questions and
concerns. I would tell you to do
some research. So you go to
a respected healthcare site that will give you
honest information, not false information,
about endometriosis, and you can go the
very basic ones like from the Mayo
Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Hopkins. You
pick your economic institution of choice that
will help you sort of guide you along
the way to be careful of a
lot of the sites out there, because
I'm sure you could find it a
site which will claim it. Endometriosis will
cause you to roll a third leg. You still want children. That's off
the time. You don't know,
studio, I think you'd be a great
at you have a kind nature that
you're very loving. The endometriosis news hits
Francis especially hard, I think,
because she's attached a lot of her self
worth and her relationship with nick to
her ability and her willingness to have kids,
and so this is her one kind
of bargaining chip. Of like,
but I will have your babies.
It's what she has to make her argument
for her role in Nick Life.
I see what you're saying. I just
don't think that she's plans ahead that
much. I think it's a genuine love
thing with with Francis. I don't
mean it to say that she's calculating.
I just mean it to say that
that she's attached some self worth in it.
I think it has to do with
her own lack of self confidence and
self esteem. Yeah, totally so. Yeah, it hits her very hard.
Then the news about the end of
matriosis because of everything that he hears,
that the doctor says, it what
she takes from it. Yeah,
and then when, by the end
of episode, when Bobby comes along and
the conflict between them happens, it's
just it's a lot, it's a it's
a lot, it's a lot,
it's a lot. And I also,
you know, I wonder if it
would have been an opportunity for Francis to
be a little bit vulnerable with bobby
if bobby hadn't found out about her short
story at this exact moment. You
know, would she have come home and
would francis have been like, I
just got this crazy news and I'm feeling
kind of freaked out about it,
because she sometimes shares with Bobby, you
know, not always, but sometimes. Yeah, there are tender moments in
which she opens up to Bobby.
Bobby can definitely open her up more than
anyone else, but she has a
bad track record with sharing news and a
timely matter. She just doesn't fucking
share anything. Just doesn't share, it's
true, especially when she's feeling attacked. Yeah, she's just freezes and she
definitely gets attacked in this fight.
Oh Yeah, and you know what,
I think she kind of deserves it. She does with contempt, and whatever
she wants she can have. It's
fiction, so why couldn't you show it
to me then? What is wrong
with you? I'm sorry, I don't
think you think anyone else is real. Francis, standing in front of all
those people at that party, all
fucking wounded, kissing me and then writing
this shit instead of communicating anything.
Even now you can't your self. Obsession
is exhausting and it's hurtful and it's
fucking boring. Bobby is so brutal with
Frances in this scene doing something,
but she's not wrong. You know,
it comes from a very raw place
and it hits hard because it's just fucking
true. Yeah, and Francis knows
it. She apologizes multiple times, but
not not really. I mean she
says like sorry, but says I'm sorry,
I'm sorry, kind of make the
situation stop. Maybe. I don't
know. I don't know what I
will do in that in that situation.
Yeah, yeah, I I know. I definitely wouldn't think of anything intelligent
to say, but there's that thing
about when you're in a relationship, in
a breakup or in a fight and
after they leave, after the confrontation you
have all these things that you want
to say to them. I think I
know what I talked about. I
get very defensive and then after I get
defensive and send an email or say
a lot of things, I have,
all night long, or maybe four
weeks or four years, centuries, have
all of the things that I should
have said and how I should have said
them. I think at this time
I was like twenty four, hundred and
twenty five. This is Rachel Bell, but like a small press put out
a scene that I did called loss, and it was I had another break
up and it was a little serious
relationship and after we broke up it was
like, okay, we're not going
to talk and I had so much that
I wanted to say to him,
and so I made a private twitter account
called things I want to text let's
call him Joe, and no one could
follow it. But anytime I wanted
to text him, instead of sending the
tax I typed it in into a
tweet and just like sent it to no
one. It was nice to have
a repository like it was. It was
basically just a coping skill, and
so the book is entirely those in chronological
order. So you can kind of
just like watch me go through the stages
of grief and then eventually feel okay
at bed. I didn't start it with
the idea of, you know,
productizing it or publishing it ever, but
I was like, damn, this
is so real. And I was talking
to somebody recently about like what being
a successful artist means, and to me
it's like, obviously it's great to
receive renown or acclaim, but if somebody
who's like lived a totally different life
than me can read some work I made
and like feel something or empathize with
it, that's success to me. And
that was one of the ones that, like it wasn't very widespread, but
when people reach out to me about
it, it was like hey, this
like really helped me go through a
breakup, and that is just like one
of the best feelings I can think
that Rachel's work is available on her website,
Rachel Bell Dot Info. Will also
link it in the show notes.
How a show, and this show
is hosted and produced by me, Maggie
Bowls, and me, no,
I'm Gadweiser. It's written and edited by
me, with assistant editing by NWAM
are. Supervising producer is Ryan Tillotson,
with help from Tyler Nielsen, Frank
Driscoll, Nick Bailey and the entire Straw
hut team. The music is by
Maggie Glass and square fish, and big
thanks to Aria A, shy,
Lauren Thorpe, xavior Salas and the Humu
team. Than a little SI's mess, misconceptions sky tell me trios, misconceptions,
conceptions, this skinsky and drew less
skins and me trust, misconceptions and US PSKY