EPISODE 13: 12: That was a pretty solid email.

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Show Notes

We can’t believe it’s over. We’re gonna miss our friends and our strangers. We talk with producer Jeanie Igoe about the differences between Melissa on the page and Melissa on the screen. We learn some conflict resolution techniques from certified nonviolent communication facilitator Ranjitha Jeurkar. Maggie tells us about a time she waited 7 years to apologize. We talk about our feelings about the series overall (obviously). And we ask producer Jeanie Igoe if there could ever be a season two of Conversations With Friends.

Ranjitha Jeurkar

https://www.instagram.com/connextcoaching

Michael Amico

https://instagram.com/michaelamicophoto

Michael Amico's The Evening Nudes

https://www.instagram.com/the_evening_nudes

Martha Kauppi

https://www.instituteforrelationalintimacy.com/

Transcript


STRAWT media. So E. DO
kind of don't want it to end our

or maybe do you want it to
end but you don't want to be alone

after it ends? Yeah, is
this normal? What I'm feeling right now?

Yeah, I'm like, Oh,
yes, you felt up to okay,

cool, personally. Talk to yeah, yeah, welcome to conversations with

friends and strangers. I'm Maggie.
I'm the Lam in the show. We

take a closer look at the complicated
relationships in the Hulu series conversations with friends.

Will meet some of the cast and
crew, chat with experts and share

our own kind of sexy, kind
of uncomfortable but relatable stories about the messy

relationships we find ourselves in. It's
our final episode. I know I feel

conflicted, I feel sad. I'm
going to miss my friends, I'm going

to miss my strangers, but today
we get a lot of great stuff and

you want to know can you really
call someone out for hurt full behavior and

communicate through a conflict? We talked
to producer genie I go about the differences

between Melissa on the page and Melissa
on the screen. We learned some conflict

resolution techniques and Maggie tells us about
the time she waited seven years to apologize.

HMM. We talked about the series
overall and our feelings and our feelings

about the series overall and we ask
some questions about a possibilities and too.

But first our last recap. Francis
is looking very alone. Yeah, she's

kind of in a depression, hybernation
mode, and a copy of her story

arrives in the mail. So she
calls Melissa and asks why she showed bobby

the story as it drops some major
wisdom. Honor, what you have behaved

has had real consequences. Francis rights
an apology email to bobby. It's a

very good email. They reconcile,
they have sex and they start their lives

together as lovers. Time passes,
she seems to be having her life together

and then around Christmas time she gets
an excellental phone call from Nick. The

ends with Frances saying come get me
you. In the novel, Melissa comes

off pretty badly and it's not hard
to join in with Francis and villainizing her.

You know she was that much,
a little bit harder and and not

meaner, but maybe just slightly.
This is producer genie. I go.

I'm starting to kind of think of
her as our conversations with friends Shaman.

That coldness of and Melissa, I
don't think really works in the adaptation as

much from screen, because you're not
so in France's as heads and experiencing what

she's experiencing. And you see it
through France's reaction that that is quatch feels

and how she sees Melissa. But
you know Melissa is a very complex person

and has her own life and this
is her husband and you know it has

so many layers. Do it.
Your actions have impact, your writing has

impact. The way you have behaved
has had a real consequences. You made

my depressed husband happy for a while
and then you gave up when things got

complicated and you want the center of
the fucking everything, and now he's struggling

again and you call me as though
you're the fucking victim. Please, please,

leave us alone. I'm sorry,
Minissa. I'm sorry for this aggressive

phone call. It was stupid.
I am I don't really know what I'm

doing at the moment. I'm having
a hard time. Maybe I'm sorry.

I'm having a hard time. Are
you okay? Francis? First of all,

I think Jemima just like brings more
of a like, she brings a

relatability maybe to it that makes Melissa's
character so much more sympathetic, you know

then and then in the book,
and also just like you know, some

of the ways that these the conversations
went like, for the one that really

stood out to me was the one
where Francis Calls Melissa on the phone to

ask her why she showed Bobby Her
story and in the book. I reread

that conversation in the book recently because
I was like, you know, this

is such a powerful moment in the
series where Melissa's able to like, you

know, a Jemima, as Melissa's
able to give her some like wisdom and

and, you know, be a
little bit harsh. Well, yeah,

pretty harsh, but also almost constructive, and it feels like a catalyst.

It feels like something that really changes. Francis has like perspective, whereas in

the book, Melissa, what Melissa
says to her, doesn't necessarily seem to

have that big of an effect.
And you know, you could make the

argument that it's all how Francis sees
it, you know, versus how it

actually took place. But it it
really changed the way that I felt about

Melissa based on seeing it on screen. Yeah, that's definitely what it felt

to me. It's hard because I'm
a purist, but in the end of

the yeah, that's much better way
to do it. We get it and

it kind of shows us when we
stand and it kind of puts Francis it

humbles her and straightens her at the
same time, and she understands kind of

her perspective fair relationship with Bobby.
MMM, totally. I mean, like,

think of your headspace those like a
twenty one year or twenty two year

old like it's so you're so self
involved. You know you're so everything is

about you, like everything is happening
to you and not moment to that.

Cool Melissa just takes her out of
it and just gives her just like a

quick reality slap of like Hey,
he's my husband, you have come into

my life and you have changed things
and it is not all about you,

like like kind of I don't know. It's such a powerful conversation, and

it is. I think you're right. It's such a catalyst to how Frances

kind of brings herself out of it
and realize it's how selfish she's being in

like it kind of happens so suddenly, because that is how I think as

a twenty in your early s,
you don't really realize that the effect you

have on people as well, and
it's something I still I think I'm still

learning now, like with friendships and
relationships, and I look back and I

think I've had this experience with someone
and they think it's been totally different and

like we're it's crazy how you what
you do to yours, Howe you tell

yourself, like how you tell yourself
you're good friends, how you tell yourself

you're doing the right thing, but
actually we'll make mistakes and you're a very

selfish people. Yeah, a percent. Also, I think it shows.

It shows how mature Francis is becoming
and how big she's a a person to

kind of own own it. She
does wake up, which makes us love

her more, because she said she's
a typical character. But in the book

to every time I read this book, I'm like you're me and I hate

you. HMM. Yeah, yeah, but like it's so true, but

you like you got so first rate
at her, but you like she's doing

the best she can as well,
and like it is a really hard time

as well, it's like, you
know, you're not in college, you

are grown up around you were in
the world, and I think Francis is

realizing that and she, you know, with the help of Melissa and with

the help of like Bobby, holding
her accountable to I think that's a really

important part of it as well.
But I think in order for her to

go back to bobby as a better
version, she needed that kind of outside

perspective and kind of someone who wasn't
going to sugarcoat off for her and someone

wasn't speaking out. Even though Melissa
is going through pain, you don't feel

like She's speaking I to Francis from
only a place of pain, it's kind

of a place of wisdom as well. Are you okay, Frances sound fine,

I just said I just haven't been
the person that I should have been.

So I don't know what any saying
now and I wish I had been

more thoughtful. I guess I want
to apologize for us. I'm going to

hang up brutal but very true things
and well, it's important that she held

Francis Accountable. There really wasn't any
attempt a resolution. Melissa, on the

other hand, so harsh, managed
to stay empathetic. All this had us

thinking about the best ways to try
and resolve conflict, because for most of

us our initial instinct is like Bobby's. It's aggression in it it's sort of

will end up driving US apart,
and we know how to hold this conversation

if we have certain things in mind. This is Ranchetha your car. She

practices and teaches non violent communication skills
and she talked to us all the way

from Bangalore. So when we're talking
about interactions that can potentially be uncomfortable or

that are uncomfortable and we're broaching there's
a couple of things for me that make

the difference between such a conversation leading
to more connection or leading to disconnection.

I think the tendency often is to
either express ourselves unfitted and to say here's

my honesty, take it, and
then that becomes sort of an equivalent of

dumping. And the other, which
is very common, is waiting until things

get super intense before even trying to
have a conversation and then, with the

intensity will so much I don't actually
have a lot of space to listen to

either me or if you want to
have a conversation about conflict and your goal

is resolution. Here are some things
you can do before entering that space.

The first is I want to get
super clear for myself about why it does

this matter to me, and this
is really central to the practice of non

violent communication itself, which is that
everything we do, we doing need delete.

Any emotion that stimulated in us is
telling us about some need or the

other that we have. If you're
not clear about what you're feeling and why,

it'll be that much harder to try
and explain it to the other person

and that much less likely the understand. So prep for sure helps with hard

conversations. Just a little bit of
reflection before about what happened, why it

does this matter to me, why
you know I'm feeling sad. What is

the sadness telling me about? The
other part for me is, instead of

saying something like you're such a lousy
friend, can I actually express my internal

experience, because saying you're a lousy
friend is more like a judgment on the

other person and my internal experience is
more like hey, you said you show

up to help me with the work
that I had on my plate last week

and I didn't see you. What
happened? I'm disappointed and I was really

hoping to have your support with that. It becomes easier for people to hear

us. Will be not blaming them, because when we blame people, their

defenses go up. They have a
choice to either defend themselves or to or

to attack us back. But when
I'm actually talking about me and how your

actions have impacted me, it's a
lot easier for you to hear and guessing,

because it's not so much about a
judgment of you, but it's more

like this is how I'm experiencing the
situation when it comes to resolving conflict.

That feels like a pattern. Say
Your friend consistently hid its important information from

you. Frencha says the key is
to be specific. First. I'd suggest

taking one at a time, or
maybe alluding to it, abuding to hey,

I remember this happening a cup,
maybe two times in the past,

or something like that, because the
most specific I can be, the less

it's likely the other person is going
to hear it, as this is exactly

the person you are and I know
it. And I think it's also about

clarifying it enough for me to get
clear about my own experience, enough that

I can say at this moment what
I want to talk about is this and

this and to really identify what are
those two or three things that I want

to talk about in this moment,
rather than talking about the entirety of what

experience, because that's that's huge.
And how you know, the more specific,

the more grandular I can be,
it's the easier it is to actually

initiate a conversation and start connecting with
the other person. Now violent communication has

a four stat framework. It's very
cool and very helpful. Will look more

info about Majitta and non violent communication
practice in the show notes and who knows,

maybe you when your next pike.
Thank you. May Have missed the

point. Perhaps we're going to take
a quick break and when you come back,

Maggie, seven year late, apology. Magic Mushrooms and Dr Martha Kelpy

shares their secret ingredient and lasting relationships. Welcome back today for our final episode

or looking at conflict and resolution.
Is it possible to call someone out for

the way they've hurt you in a
constructive way? What if you're the asshole

and no one calls you out on
it? Remember that story I told you

in episode one about playing in a
band with my ex. The part of

that story that I left out is
about the guy who played drums at us

during the time Anthony was gone.
He was not as good as Anthony.

Anthony is a musical genius. Max
was not a musical genius, but enthusiastic

in his yeah, in his blase
a way. It was two thousand and

nine and I was nineteen going on
twenty. I was living in Long Beach

and going to school but still managing
to drive down to Lata party at least

once a week and I struck up
a friendship with Max. He was like,

Oh, I played drums, I
can play drums, and I was

I think I was talking to about
a bar or something, and I was

like great, and he lives in
La he was older, he was in

his s. He seemed very cool
to me at the time and he started

playing drums with US instead. How
long was it before he's left with him?

I can't remember exactly, but not
long. It's twice a pattern.

I have a really hard type separating
my creative feelings from my romantic feelings.

So I think I do have a
connection to music and that's also where I'm

in love with my goal and he's
I'll never love me back the way that

I want. That's because I have
a very strict rule about creative partner romances.

Yeah, it's the only the only
reason. No strictules about Vaginas at

all. No, no, no, no, no, no, no,

very profamously, I wouldn't say x
and I were ever in a relationship,

but we were fond of one another
and there are a few instances where

we crossed that line into more than
friends, romance of convenience maybe, like

convenient to have a twenty one year
old around, you know. Yeah,

well, I think there's also the
factor of, like, we're spending a

lot of time together and we're drinking
a lot together playing at these shows,

and like then he just kind of
happened. So there been some a skate

dude in the band, I probably
would have been pounding him too. So

you would have been. That just
wasn't I is the true tragedy of the

story. After about seven or eight
months of playing shows with Max, Anthony

said he was thinking about rejoining the
band, and this was big because we'd

really been feeling Anthony's absence in the
music. There wasn't just he wasn't as

Goas Anthony. It's that he wasn't
that good, generally know, and we

should also say that we weren't that
good either. No, no, Anthony

was doing a lot of the heavy
lifting when it came to musicality and the

way that we played, and I
don't think we realized how much work he

did as a drummer until we got
a different drummer who was more you know,

I was in a fantastic guitar player
at that time. You were probably

a lot better at base than I
was at guitar and and probably a guitar

actually at that point, and we
don't want to remember about really like the

biggest contribution from our time playing with
Max is that the sound really evolved.

That was the first time we were
playing with a full drum kid and not

using a cone anymore, and things
gone all out louder and a lot fuller

and we really like went from being
like a coffee shop folk kind of thing

to like a rock band. The
Way I remember it, we got an

opportunity for a show that felt like
a big deal. I don't remember what

the show was, but I can
certainly imagine as of the time saying like

this is going to be a big
show, so this is our reason to

brook anthony instead of Max and using
that as some kind of excuse to be

like, well, it's important,
so we have to make this this choice.

Changing drummers doesn't have to be dramatic. Band switch lineups all the time.

WHO's the way we did it?
That's still just mortifies me. It

was like we ghosted our own drummer. Rather than talking to Max about it,

we just booked the show with Anthony. It was so shitty and I

remember it was like the day before
or the day of the show, he

texted me and he said, do
we have a show tonight or do we

have a show? I remember that
moment where you were he texted you and

he's like he's asking right now if
we have a show. That's like,

Oh God, what are we tell
him? And Yeah, I also very

specifically remember telling people about it afterwards
and they asked like who's, like,

what happened your old drummer, and
we would tell them the story and we

would always say like he texted US
asking if we have a show and we

said we have a show, you
don't have a show, something horrible like

that. I don't even remember if
those are the words that we use to

him. I kind of don't think
that we would have been that cruel,

but I just remember that that is
the language that the retelling took on.

When people asked us about what happened
to our old drummer, is that's how

we told the story. So we
were aware that we had done something shitty

and that was the end of Max. No one reached out to him to

explain or to apologize, and no
one called us out for being so shitty.

It was just like one day we
were abandoned then all sudden we weren't.

We never spoke again, and so
I mean like, I think literally

years later, because we couldn't overcome
our own shame. Uh Yeah, we

really like we could have. He
would have understood, you know, we

could have said we're gonna go back
to this other drummer that we've played with

and we still want to be friends
and we really enjoyed this time together.

But we were children and we are
afraid of that confrontation and so instead we

just were shittheads about it. You
know, when I moved to La Proper

in two thousand and sixteen, I
passed him in the parking lot of traitor

jazz. I waved to him and
the look he gave me was just pure

ice, and I suddenly noticed the
void where my apology should have been.

So I wrote on a message on
facebook seven years later. Hey Max,

this may seem to come out of
nowhere, but I am writing to apologize

for the Shitty way I love things
with you and squarefish all those years ago.

Honestly, I did a lot of
shitty things when I was younger.

Sometimes I blame it on my underdeveloped
frontal lobe, sometimes my self centeredness,

sometimes my starry, I naivete translated
into narcissism. Either way, you are

my friend and my collaborator and I
just cut you out with no explanation or

consideration. And regardless of how mediocre
my band was, that wasn't okay.

I'm sure the whole thing is was
just a blip on your radar and that

has completely left your mind. But
for my own peace of mind, I

want you to know that I am
truly sorry. I hope your life is

happy and productive and full of beauty. Old Friend. PS, no,

I'm not a twelve step program cheese
cann a girl. Just apologize. He

read the message but he never responded
until just a few weeks ago. It's

why the story is on my mind. All he said was that he was

thinking about me and that he hoped
I was. Well, I'm glad you

apologize after seven years, and I'm
glad he accepted your apology five years after

that. I mean that's almost twelve
years. Your conflict is almost all enough

to have its own from its one. Can we hear a story where people

solve their conflict and a healthier and
maybe faster way? Okay, how about

faster and super fresh, like just
happened? Remember my friend dice smell from

episode six. I mentioned he lives
in a house with a bunch of people.

It's three couples. Sham like going
on. There's like too longstanding friends,

business partners, like in a band
with like one of the other people.

We each have our partners, and
my sister is very like inter related.

Sir, goal recently things had gotten
tense. It all started to spiral

down into like Oh, what is
this like? Union is potentially like fracturing

between some of these different couples,
because this shit is complicated. Like living

with a lot of people, it's
fucking hard, especially when you're in a

romantic relationship. It really is difficult
to navigate all these things and it takes

a lot of like understanding and awareness. So it all hate me like just

like a hammer to the face,
like all of this was going on,

but yet it hadn't really been addressed. So I felt called to kind of

organize. They like bit of a
circle around the situation of like can we

create a space or like everybody kind
of shares how they feel so we can

understand each other and then maybe we
can create can figure out like our needs

and set some boundaries. One person
in the house had been feeling judged by

some of the other people in the
house and this person was so uncomfortable they

wanted to move out, which is
kind of it's kind of nuts. It's

kind of crazy too, because when
the person originally addressed us, like she

kind of had to break up with
like six people. If all this is

very intense like moment that shattered the
bullshit around, and now we're now worried

a bit of a different dimension where
things are a bit more real, deeper,

like complicated it. So die smel
decided to consciously create a space where

they could all talk and I was
sort of going to set some protocols,

so he could like have open discussion
about that. And it's just like the

complex, the situation a very like
complex as like different emotions, rage and

sadnesss and like all these things that
people have been feeling for a long times

but they've never addressed. It was
just like really intense Cathartic like experience between

a group of friends. So it's
like kind of lay it all out and

it kind of like are all these
things that are just inside of you,

and some of it is like is, you know, it's it's hard for

other people to understand. They're taken. But yeah, it was a lot.

The next day I had actually set
up for myself, just been thinking

about it for months, like an
intentional like mushroom journey. So like after

this catharchist the next day I kind
of did this whole like, you know,

I did the therapeutic like playlist.
I'm asked PSYCHEDELIC Journey, which like

for me was just like super healing, supportive, like like Oh man,

like I feel like I'm accessing this
with other people. It feels like I've

stepped into this new party myself that
I didn't really know is that and like

it feels good to like be honest
with people, but be able to like

express your emotions, but also like
an intentionally, I not just be able

to like communicate yourselflf stand up for
yourself, but also be like respectful to

others and acknowledge them. And it's, it's, it was like. You

just have to like not have to
respond and kind of engage in these difficult

parts, because the necessary for people
that need a lot of processing time.

Hi Me. Also, friends has
writing is an effective way to do that,

and no one ever has to see
it. You could pull a Rachel

Bell and dump it all into a
private twitter, or you could pull Francis

and write a pretty solid email.
I think about you constantly. I want

to sleep with you again, if
you'd ever want to do that. I've

always thought that maybe I wasn't capable
of love, but I was too selfish.

I thought there was something wrong with
me. Somehow. That isn't true.

I know that I've hurt you.
I'll be buss. I love you

and I always have. There's something
that all these stories today have in common,

both with each other and with conversations
with friends, and that's that they

all deal with realizing that we each
have an inner life that's rich and complex

and worthy of being respected. It's
on us to give that respect to ourselves

and to the people in our lives. And sure, we have a lot

of things in common with one another
and it's always exciting to find those moments

of symmetry, but it's actually the
way we contrast each other that we need

to remember to celebrate. One of
the things about being in a relationship that

stands the test of time a little
bit is a growing awareness and appreciation for

differences. Here's Dr Martha Kelpy.
So this is just a normal stage of

a relationship for me, the stage
where you wake up and realize, oh

my gosh, I really didn't know
you, or I thought some things about

you the turn out not to be
true, or who the heck are you

anyway, and then there are opportunities
at that point to either grow into appreciating

differences and continuing to stay connected or
to let the relationship go. And relationships

that last people make the decision okay, I'm going to stick with it for

one reason or another, and I
think in order to get through that sort

of really difficult stage to a solid, excellent, long term relationship requires strategically

and intentionally developing an appreciation of differences. It's not exciting or likely that any

of us are going to have a
relationship with somebody who's just like us.

And if I did have a relationship
with somebody who was just like me,

I just be like, well,
where's the novelty of that? I'm never

surprised ever, you know, and
there wouldn't be anything to counterbalance my challenges.

There wouldn't be anything that I needed
to do differently. There, you

know, life would be very,
very boring. I think that this speaks

something to the need to appreciate diversity
generally, but also in our own homes

and our own relationships. Diversity should
be seen as a strength. So the

ways that were different help us be
stronger. If we can tolerate the heat

right, if we can tolerate some
conflict, we can tolerate some hard conversations

and we can remain in a relational
stance, we can seek the connection rather

than the right perfect answer or the
one world view. So I think it's

super complicated, but I would take
that question globally. It's it's a differences

are an important topic and one that
we don't talk about enough in relationships.

We think that a successful relationship is
between people who don't have any differences,

but that is absolutely not the case. The successful relationship is between people who

have come to terms with their differences
and figure out how to leverage them for

the greater good of all. I
just discovered a huge difference between us,

Maggie, and I feel very weird
about this right now. Okay, we

might have to break up. You
write in books, you whol again.

I write in books. Yeah,
of course I write in books. I

just found a note in conversation with
friends. It's sorry, Sally, Maggie

wrote in your book about Joanna Newsome, underline what song, question mark,

question mark, question mark, and
a bunch of Ha has. I mean,

I don't I don't get it.
I mean, it's quite simple actually.

Whenever I pick up the book again, I can flip it open and

as soon as I see some of
my writing, I'm taken instantly to one

of my favorite part of the book. I'm going to get you post.

It's because a book is sacred and
you should not. I don't believe in

a lot of things, but I
do believe that books are sacred, and

especially when it's my favorite book.
Feel very strongly that you wrote in it.

I agree that books are sacred and
that is exactly why I write in

them. We celebrate them in different
ways, but I want my copy of

beautiful world. Where are you back? I would never write in your copy.

My never writing someone else's copy.
IGGY, I think. I think

we got a breakup. I think
we can resolve this now that we've seen

the whole series, now that we've
kind of gone really deep. What are

your thoughts? It's an interesting question
because for me, conversations with friends,

the book was a slice of time. Still is. It's a slice of

time and a lot of me talking
to the different versions of the different awams

that are walking the planet in at
all at one time, because has just

like we living those moments of big
moments in my life that ended up being

big when I didn't know they were
big in complicated relationships. But then watching

the series, it's contemporary, so
it's not, you know, two thousand

and thirteen, two thousand and fifteen, when I had a lot of those

experiences and where I have been imagining
the book. I mean, as you

noticed, that I've been mentioning in
twin all the time. I have had

different boyfriends, but when I read
this book for the first time, it

just the way that nick talks,
the lack of communication, the frustration,

but also that that love and attraction
that existed, that that power just for

me it was untwine talking to me. That's why it keeps coming back,

and also the fact, I mean, he was in a relationship when the

for half of the time that we
were in a relationship. Yeah, someone

that he had been with for nine
years and he did decide to end things

with her and try and build something
with me, but at that point he

was so broken and I was so
broken because we already were. We were

in so much pain to that point
that it was sweet that we tried and

he had some beautiful moments but it
didn't work out. So in the series

with with Bobby and Francis Being Bobby
and Francis and not being just versions of

Noam's everywhere out of my head.
It's a different experience that that I really

appreciate. I think they did a
very good job and it's it's really art

more than a lot of tell fision
shows these days. Yeah, I agree.

Overall, I would say really great
experience. I'm glad that they adapted

the novel the way that they did. I saw all these choices that they

made and for the most part I
think I was on board with their choices.

There were a couple of sort of
thematic elements that were in the novel

that didn't make it in the series
that I kind of missed. I has

some something that's great with Sally Rooney
is the her reoccurring themes that remind me

of more comming in a way.
They're so different, but she kind of

re uses her same subject matter and
she kind of flirts with religion in a

way that I like, but instead
of criticizing it and just a normal way,

he shows it also as a coping
mechanism and kind of an interesting she

has a very interesting dialog with religion, with Frances and conversations with friends and

one of her endometriosis episodes when she
is in a lot of pain, in

the haze and the feverish hallucination that
she goes through, she wanders into a

church and she sits there and have
a has a conversation with herself and in

the end she passes out in that
church and I just find that so symbolic

there's just so much symbolism and that
is that is a part that would have

been hard to adapt. Yeah,
I get why they left that out because

I don't think it would have worked
visually. I think it would have been

overly dramatic. Exactly. Yeah,
I also, I'm just remembering now,

that that was one of the reasons
that I really identified with Francis, because

I went through a similar phase where
when I was really depressed once I was

like maybe, like Jesus, it's
a solution here. I've a I know

is it wasn't. It turned out
it wasn't, but I did, I

did explore it. You know,
for me one of the things that's kind

of missing from the series, at
least in the magnitude that it is in

the novel, is the concept of
self harm. You know, we see

one moment in the series where Francis
cuts herself and she kind of alludes to

it in the short story, but
it's kind of a big part of the

novel. It is and it isn't
in how she deals with nake being around

her. She hurt herself by her
just pain helps her deal with a lot

of the situations. Yeah, and
also the way the series ends and the

way the book ends are technically the
same, but I think I have more

hope for them in the series than
I did in the book. Really,

I disagree. Stay. Yeah,
I know, I think in in the

series I really felt that and here
we go again. That's the exact feeling

I got from the novel. Well, in a good I got it in

a good way and you get it
in a bad way. I got an

all God again and then in the
series I was like, okay, again,

maybe we can do it right this
time. So I got that from

the book, but it's just,
yeah, it's like here we go again,

and she does in the book she
said how she does it. It's

a bird, Iye, view of
Francis and nick kind of moving towards her

in time and I'm with them.
I'm with them on that journey. I

was really hoping to that maybe there's
going to be a second book, but

that's not how Sally Rolls. Yeah, I was hoping they do like a

handmade's tale kind of thing where you
know, you start with the novel and

then you go to what happens next. You know. But well, we

asked you about it and she kind
of brought us back down to Earth,

go off and imagine what it would
be like that. Those are my favorite

types of movies, my favorite types
of books. I kind of leave it

a little open ended so you're not
disappointed by the I mean it's some people

might be disappointed with come and get
me and that she's stepping back into this

situation, but I think it's kind
of a nice way of just like,

okay, she is aware of the
situation out and she is going into it

with the new perspective and a bit
more of an educated perspective. So I

think that's that says and but I
don't think. I don't think I want

to go back and see. I
think I want to let them go off

and experience that and then whether it
fails or works, you know, and

I just want I don't want to
know. I wrote like give it over

to them. I T verse.
You know exactly. Yeah, a bit

of everything everywhere like it. How
to show. This show is hosted and

produced by me, Maggie bowls and
me, no, I'm Gadweiser. It's

written and edited by me, with
Assistant Editing by Nawam. Our supervising producer

is Ryan Tillotson, with help from
Tyler Nielsen, Frank Driscoll, Nick Bailey

and the entire Straw hut team.
The music is by Maggie Glass and square

fish, and big thanks to Aria
a shy, Lauren Thorpe, xavior Salas

and the Hulu team, Sho
Conversations With Friends & Strangers
Welcome to Conversations With Friends and Strangers! Join Maggie & Noam as they take a closer look at the complicated relationships in the Hulu series, Conversati... View More

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