EPISODE 14: Conversations With Friends ... and Strangers

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Show Notes

Keener and KK sit down with Maggie Boles to chat about Only Murders returning AND a new companion podcast for Hulu's show Conversations With Friends!

Make sure to listen to Conversations With Friends and Strangers on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen! !!

Transcript


Straw meet. We it's Sally Brooney. Is She the normal people? Ns

exactly, same novelist and same creative
team. All of it we're involved in.

Okay, people are involved in conversations. Welcome to another very special bonus

episode of only murders in the pot, the show where we look behind the

scenes and mine for clues as we
meet the cast and creators of the Hulu

original series only murders in the building. I'm your host, Elizabeth Keener.

I'm your host, Kevin Lawn.
Hi, KK Hi, keener, hi,

baggy, hi, what's going on? I don't know. Why are

we here? We are here because
we're in the final stretch. HMM,

because only murders in the building is
returning for all the season on June twenty

eight. Oh, this is very
exciting and even better, we return with

an all new podcast the next day, that is June twenty nine. That

is even better. Is this season
starting a little bit earlier than last year,

because I think it started in August
or September last season? Oh Wow.

Okay, you are brilliant of that. It's like an idiot savant,

but you know, is one of
those. And when shows premier sit from

here. You're right. So this
one is going to be about a different

murder in the building? Yes,
because we know bunny's dead. Barnie,

but poor bunny. And she had
this sweatshirt, remember. She had the

Papo as its tie. Died Hood
called Paisley, but maybe that's next season.

Yeah, people don't wear those d
yeah, so poor bunny is gone.

I mean poor bunny. Did we
like bunny? No, she wasn't

Super Nice. It wasn't right now
she was bill didn't care for her.

No, and she was in everybody's
business. And Yeah, I don't wish

deaf on anybody, but HMM me. There's another does another vacancy and another

vegas. Very good, I like
that. That's a that's like a song.

It's a nice building, but you
could end up dead. To take

your risk because it's a beautiful building. I'm wondering if it's going to be

winter again in the second season.
Isn't it a different show? Winter is

coming. That's a different show,
isn't it? HMM, because it takes

place right at the end of it
was winter. They're all wearing winchre coats

and that's when Bunny's dead. Yes, so maybe it goes into springtime.

Oh, we get a hole different
outfit. Yeah, and she that could

be really fun. I hope we
do get a summer Ni Basi being a

purple one, because if it's the
same colors that they had, like,

you know, the same tones they
had last season, sure everybody get little

Purple Speedo? Oh, I'm hoping. I'm hoping. The options are endless.

Yes, they are. We also
know that Amy Schumer's going to be

in see into I think Shumer.
We love her. Do we know who

she will be playing or anything about
her character yet? I think she lives

in the Arconia. I think that's
that's all we know. If she's lived

there the whole time or a new
resident? Yeah, that's intention. Yeah,

that's a really good question. I
like that because you know we,

I mean there's a lot of different
how many floors did we see? See

to how many floors? At least? There's over nine right over. There

were a few and we've only seen
about maybe ten different patrons. What are

the yes, residents of easy residence? Yes, maybe the but back to

murder. Yeah, swap, because
murder. Let's talk about murder. We

do you remember? How did Bunny
die? When she stopped. I think

she had a knife in her chest. Yes, a knitting needle. Oh,

knitting, oh, which table in
the pilot? Waits minute deep.

that it for reminding us, because
in her dream exactly, she killed someone

with a knitting needle. Whoo Huh. So, Amy Ryan, you think

is going to be gone, or
do you think she should be a don

or trial or something some I bet
she'll make an apparance right now. No,

wouldn't that be interesting? No,
no, I'm someone want to visit

her in jail. No, mean, maybe it's like a silence of the

lamp thing and they go to her
to be like who did it? She's

standing in her yeah, I think
it's Ay Schumer. I'm saying it right

now, m calling him. Yeah, it's always that. It's always the

well, you know it. Did
you ever see an all like older shows?

It was always the guests, the
special g star who's always there,

like Robert Rule at Oh. So, Magg you want to tell us something

that we should know about now?
Yeah, I mean, as much as

I love to just sit here and
listen you guys talk about holy murders,

I am here for reason. I
did come to share some exciting news.

Well, so we made another companion
podcast for another Hulu show based on Sally

Rooney's book, conversations with friends,
and the full season is out. Different

than only murders. Conversations release the
entire twelve part series on one day,

and so we did the same thing
for our podcast. The next day we

released all twelve episodes. I know
it was a lot, it was real

twelve. Yes, we worked with
WHO on this one and we decided to

make a companion podcast kind of unlike
any companion podcast you've ever heard in your

life, probably. So we do
look behind the scenes and we do talk

to some of the cast and crew, but we also look at the thematic

elements of the show and we talked
to experts and real people and get stories

and kind of take of this American
Life Vibe to it so that it's a

much more expansive de die. Wow, exactly. Put everything in a bowl

like you did everything. That's of
like podcast. Do you put ball in

one pod type of podcast? Basically, that's fantastic. Wow, that is

exciting. New episodes are still it's
Sally Brooney. She the normal people,

right exactly. Hey, novelist and
same creative team. All of it were

involved in, people are involved in
conversations. I read the normal people book.

It's very good. You should check
it out. Wow, it is

great. Also, conversations with friends. Great ups. It's ourrs gres novel.

Yeah, she's fantastic and she's young
to she's like thirty or sho would

say something. Doing pretty well,
sir, she's doing the right thing.

It's Center S, I think.
Yeah, well, that's exciting. Yes,

Maggie, I can't even believe you're
awake. I know. So this

show. Similarly to you, guys
and only murders, I hosted this with

my good friend Noam, and she
was actually the one who thought of like,

wait, let's not just do a
companion pod, let's make it so

much more expansive, let's talk to
real people, let's talk to experts,

let's let's make it big. And
so we did. And so if you

listen to the show, you'll hear
a lot of our cute little banter.

Yes, you know am, yes, similar to the caking thinking. Maybe

I was thinking maybe, if you
guys will let me share here episode one.

You give us one second. Yeah, what do you think? It

so us. Okay, no second
thoughts. On that. Absolutely do.

It sounds good, so good.
I'm thank you so much for you're a

welcome, EA, gerosity. So
it is a favorite. But but seriously,

we're very excited about it. So
why he tells a little bit about

the first one before you, before
you air it. Okay. Yeah,

episode one we look at the question
of can you stay friends with an x?

Francis is the main character of conversations
with friends and she has a friendship.

Her best friend is also her ex, and so that's kind of how

we decided to open up the season. And so we talk to one of

the producers on the show about some
of the casting things and then we also

talk. I tell a lot of
personal stories on this podcast. Nice.

Yeah, so I talked about a
story about when I was in a band

with an x for many years.
And we hear from like Lacy Mosley,

who's an actress and comedian. She's
on I carly and black lady sketch show.

She's hilarious. She she shares a
great story. And then we close

out the episode with this Mediterranean scholar, Marguerite Johnson, who was so,

so interesting. She told us about
Sappho, the yes I of course,

yes, I love Lesbos. Yes, who doesn't know that? I mean?

But to go there, we had
to go there and it's really,

really fascinating. Yeah, yes,
the Isle of Lesbos. I'll be German

about that tonight. Yeah, so
every basically every time we try to talk

to, you know, someone from
Hulu, we try to hear his story

and we try to talk to an
expert about something. It sounds like it

lends itself to get it very personal. Yeah, it's good. Gets very

personal and you know, my mom
is actually going to listen to it without

having seen the show because she's like, I don't have Hulu, and I

was like, Oh yeah, mom, we get with ads, get you

wholu ads. For sure, a
couple emails, but she's gonna listen to

it without watching the show. So
well, I'll get a review on what

it's like if you haven't seen the
show soon. But I there anything you've

said that you don't want your mother
to hear any many that's what makes right

now, but that's what makes a
good podcast. You say it anyway.

You say anything and everything, which
I keep trying to get kid to come

on, give me those things,
because way I am trying to keep be

quiet and the first topic of you. Can you still be friends? Friend

here, excess a big, great
thing. Everyn identify with that. Yeah,

it's on. Just try. Yeah, try. We've all tried.

You know. I must just say
it's interesting because I think that I don't

know why same sex couple seems like
they can be friends more than opposite sex

go. I don't know why that
is to me in my head, because

I'm thinking of all my friends and
all the guys kind of stay friends or

the wooden stay days and we're married. Yes, were what? I block

that out of my brain. Talking
to mad you just brought that up because

it's now. It was fun for
you. Um, okay. So,

anyway, it really is a really
interesting topic. Yeah, can't wait to

listen to yeah, well, here
it is, episode one. Yes,

that's the situation. I'm a lated. Oh, it's actually gonna be pretty

clothes crack, just as crack of
a door. Big Welcome to conversations with

friends and strangers. I'm Maggie.
I'm the Lam in the show. We

take a closer look at the complicated
relationships in the Hulu series conversations with friends.

Will meet some of the cast and
crew chat with experts and share our

own kind of sexy, kind of
uncomfortable but relatable stories about the messy relationships

we find ourselves in. It's our
very first show and the question on our

minds is, is it possible to
stay friends with an x? Will Talk

to producer Genie I go about the
process of casting the four main roles.

I love casting personally, me too. Then Maggie shares a story about her

experience being in a band with an
x for years. Many years. After

that, actress and Comedian Lacy Moseley
tells us the story of her longtime sex

front, now her non sex friend. Right, well, don't spoil anything,

okay. and that fiery feeling of
being in love, you know,

the stuff they write poetry about.
Maybe that's why it's so hard to feel

normal about an X. will talk
to ancient Mediterranean scholar, Marguerite Johnson,

about poetry and girl love, because
there's actually a lot of poetry in this

episode. Frances is a poet after
all. But first let's recap episode one.

We meet Francis and bobby while they're
sitting outside at Trinity College. The

semester's ending and summer times upon them. They perform a feminist spoken word promitive

Bar, and they meet Melissa,
a wellknown writer living in Dublin. We

learn that Francis writes the poems and
that she and bobby used to date and

a friendship buds between them. There's
a dinner and we meet Nick, Melissa's

husband. He's tall, handsome and
an actor. Something is clearly happening between

them and attraction. There's some flirting. We also see Francis in pain from

her period in this episode, but
it's really bad pain. It doesn't seem

normal and bobby takes care for its
really sweet and its later on they have

another poetry performance. This time nick
is invited and he shows up a little

late, but the flirting definitely intensifies. Oh yeah, very flirty all.

And that's episode one of the show. So today, for our first episode,

we'll talk a little bit more about
poetry and crushes, but mostly we'll

be trying to answer an age old
question. Is it possible to maintain a

healthy friendship with an x or a
working relationship? But first a little look

behind the scenes with someone from the
creative team. My name is genie I

go and I'm one of the producers
on conversations with friends. So when Hulu

announced they were adapting conversations with friends
into a series, I heard about the

casting of Jemima Kirk first and my
initial thought was that, oh, she's

definitely going to play Bobby, but
actually we're all old now, so of

course she's Melissa. Reality check,
not Francis Anymore. I'm not twenty one

or twenty four. Genie had a
similar realization. Like I was always pulled

with myself as Francis Age and then
I realize now I'm Melissa's a sin I

don't like. No, no,
wait, I'm and I think a lot

of my friends gone through that too, like a lot of like people that

love the book. She always see
themselves as Francis, so to feel that

they are then the older person in
that story has been. I'm still very

young, obviously, but not as
young as Francis and Bobby. No,

but let's talk quickly about the casting. We have alison, all of our

and our first ever on screen role
playing Francis, fresh aired drama school,

but like crazy, wise beyond two
years. She just is like an old

soul. Even the way she goes
about the whole process. She just,

you know, she's just really brilliant
and kind of has this level of maturity

that you don't really find very often
with people when they're doing their first on

screen performance. Allison was such an
amazing find. She looks like a Sally

Ronny character. I agree. She's
like pretty but maybe a little bit mousy.

Massie, yeah, I'll see.
I see what now? I don't

know. Yeah, well, a
little, I can see that, but

with a big serving of sex.
Definitely can see that. She's she has

some serious sexiness and Alison is the
only Irish person that was cast in the

four main roles. There's Joe Allen, who is English. He's English.

She asks. Yeah, as of
this year, engaged to Taylor Swift.

I really muzzle too. You know, there's so much going on behind his

eyes, like he's just gone through
a really rough time and then we're just

we're seeing little bits of it,
but we you know, we only need

him in bits and pieces through and
we're very much kind of feeling him through

France's perspective, so you're not kind
of getting a lot to eave. To

find someone who had that kind of
emotional intelligence with joe is incredible and like

really, really special. Jemima Kirk
as. Melissa is fantastic. I just

feel like she has this magic about
her. I think as soon as we

met her on Zoom it was a
very easy decision. And again, I

kind of think when it comes to, you know, where the casts were

from, it kind of really happened
quite organically, like when we met the

right person, and then we could
kind of feel like, okay, well,

then they met in London and she
was there and that makes sense because

she's quite a successful rider and this
happing this career over there and as come

to art, and that felt right. In the same Sasha, I yes,

perhaps the biggest departure from the book
characterwise the Americanization of Bobby Connolly with

the casting of social leane. I
don't know if you seen her in American

honey. I was okay to work
on the release of that film, but

she is just she is logic.
She has something about her that you can't

really quite describe, but it's like
she breaks your heart, which she also

just is completely dazzling, and she
needs to be. And then again just

has so much kind of depth.
Toure. I remember when, do you

know when the first press was coming
out and I saw the casting, I

was really surprised by secheline and I
was like, oh, that's going to

be really interesting to see that.
You know how they adjust bobby's character to

fit that. And then when I
watched the show I was like, Oh

my God, it's perfect. It
works so well. Yeah, so I

was cast first and then afterwards they
adapted Bobby's characters backstory. Yeah, kind

of. I think the bobby character
was hardest character to cast and it was

also you had to cast it before
you could kind of cement the others around,

because the four of them, like
it is such an ensemble and they

all have to work together, like
you have to believe every dynamic of that

relationship. All of it is so
important and kind of so subtle, and

so I think finding her was like
we are all in or myself, Catherine

and any we're all in Belfast and
think chemistry reads with Alison and so cast

and she came in and all of
us just like lost our minds. I

like see just came in, she
was bobby. She does had this calm

naster but kind of cute and worky
know. I didn't think quirk. He's

probably their fair word to say but
like just kind of dislike ute coulkwardness to

her, but then again, like
we were all in Howards and she just

like you kind of put words and
let you fit the story. For that

when you find up character that fits
right into that world, you can kind

of make it all makes sense pretty
easily and also still being very true to

the character of Bobby. We will
talk about characters more throughout the season,

but for now let's circle back to
the question we started with. Is it

possible to stay friends with an ex? We were fucking back then too,

but we don't do that anymore.
We drop the fucking but get the poetry.

That sounds like the wrong way around, I know right. Are you

friends with any of your ex's?
No, one, not really, not

anymore. I was for a really
long time friends with most of my exes

and I decided that maybe I need
to break up with them at some point

for our own mental health. So
I think all in all, maybe I

was a little strict with it.
Now then I think about now that we're

working on a PODCAST, but I'm
not against it. But it's a very

fine line between kind of leaving someone
on the back burner and actually being friends

with them. That's a really good
point. That's a really good point.

Thank you so much. I also, when I was younger, felt like

I was friends with most of my
exes and I wore it like a badge

of honor, like I'm not a
toxic person because I'm friends with all my

exes or something like that. And
I definitely was much more toxic as a

young person, which you all listeners
will learn throughout the season. So I

have a story actually, because I
had a long time friendship and creative relationship

with an x for many years,
and so I wanted to call in a

dear friend and musical collaborator to help
me tell the story. I'm my goal.

I live in Prague in the Zech
Republic. I'm photographer. I'm actually

here doing my master's. I'm a
very long time and close friend of Maddie

and was a bass player in our
band we had in college. Freshman Year

of college, I was just s
starting to play guitar and write songs.

When I met we'll call him anthony. He offered to play co Homee with

me, which is a box drum, and through that collaborative process I fell

in love. We started a band
with my goal on the base and total.

I think we dated for maybe six
months, with a little summer breakup

in between. The first break up
his choice, the second one my choice.

And after that second breakup he took
a year off from the band.

We had to find a new drummer. You'll hear about that a little bit

in a later episode. And when
he came back is when our friendship and

creative partnership began in earnest. And
I remember him being a bit jealous when

I would date other guys in the
beginning, mostly kind of just immature stuff,

calling them boring or stupid. Nothing
too serious, at least for me.

But then he started to act kind
of weird. He was drinking really

heavily and behaving erratically. Here's my
goal. Yeah, I think what I

remember starting to notice was like,
and I might be mixing this with memories

from later when things had gotten quite
a bit worse, but like you know,

we're playing a show and he likes
sort of like barking strange sounds from

behind us or like going off playing
some weird little solo thing on his own

that you're like, okay, I
guess Anthony's just doing his thing again.

But like on her. Know what
this is? Yeah, yeah, that's

how I'm early on we kind of
laughed it off as leg it's just quirking

anthony being weird, HMM. But
he ended up going into some kind of

like delusion and he was talking about
the devil and the government spying on him

and it became super weird and it
became pretty clear that there was something serious

happening. It wasn't just weird Anthony. We managed to maintain our creative relationship

and our friendship for a while until
his mental illness surfaced. We ended up

playing with Anthony for years. After
four years he was the main drummer in

the band and we never got back
together romantically after that, but we did

become really close friends and, you
know, I feel like during that time

he was always managing his bipolar diagnosis
and also trying to stay in a scene

that was hyper reliant on drugs and
alcohol and that doesn't she is not supposed

to be mixing with his medication exactly. You had to sort of baby sitt

him. You're babysitting and drink here. You're not supposed to be smoke that.

And I can remember two two episodes
where he had to drop out of

the band for a little while to
recover, and they would get really weird

again, where he's like looking at
churches and talking about like there's a lot

of evil in that church. They're
doing all these evil things in there,

and we'd be like driving to your
show and like okay, I'm getting nervous

because maybe here we go again.
Yeah, and over over the years there

was a lot of a lot of
care taking, I think, and and

babysitting. But I loved Anthony,
you know, I considered him one of

my best friends. I talked to
his mom with regularity for many years,

whereas you know, do you know
well. So we stayed in contact and

then the year two thousand and fifteen
he started dating someone and he stopped answering

my phone calls. He goes to
me and he removed me from his facebook

and I got really worried, obviously, because I was like Oh, what's

happening? So I called his mom
and I said like Hey, I just

want to check in on Anthony and
make sure everything's okay, and she said,

Oh, you know, he's got
a new girlfriend and she's kind of

possessive, but we really like her
and really happy for him and, you

know, I think she's just trying
to manage who he's who he's talking to.

And so I was like, okay, well, I'm just going to

give this a little bit of time
and hopefully he'll, you know, reach

out again. And then some time
went by and he was going to get

married. I heard and I reached
it again and I still didn't get anything.

or I guess pregnancy in marriage kind
of came around the same time.

Yeah, she was pregnant. They
were going to have a baby, and

reached out again and didn't have any
any response. And that was two thousand

and fifteen. We haven't spoken since. Yeah, I ever talked to him

at all. Yeah, look like
he's somewhere with some kids and a wife.

Yeah, yeah, I think he's
teaching. You know, I anthony.

I think like we watched him his
trouble a lot and even if it

sort of came at the cost of
all of our friendships, I think there

was a general relief that like his
life had found some kind of stability in

it. Yeah, exactly. And
so, yeah, I was as sad.

It was sad to lose the connection, but also I wanted the best

for him. Whatever, whatever that
meant. You know whatever. You know.

unhealthiness there was between us in our
in our former relationship, obviously was

too much to move past, I
think. And so, yeah, yeah,

but I wish him the best.
Yeah, and he is anything genius.

He is a musician unlike any I
have ever met. We're going to

take a quick break and when he
come back, actor and comedian lacy mostly

shares our own story about maintaining a
friendship with an x, be right back.

Welcome back. Today we are trying
to answer the age old question.

Is it possible to maintain a healthy
relationship with x? MMM, I mean

the fine healthy, honestly great point. I mean I definitely still have some

people in my life that might fall
into the category of X's. Do I

sleep with them? Some of them. Yes. What about you? I

would say that I'm I'm friendly with
many of my excess like if I saw

them, I would say hello,
I'd say how are you? Light,

polite, friendly, Morgil. Still, you know, follow many of them

on instagram or facebook. Is Not? Is that a pink flag? That

might be a pink flag, but
let's just say none of them are invited

to my wedding. I mean we
can talk about Exos, barber, and

I'm going to. I'M gonna send
a party with one next week and let's

see if anyone like if we're we're
going to if I'm going to live,

if he's going to live, because
pregnant girlfriend's going to live, who knows?

Yeah, we could talk about exces
forever, but for now let's listen

to some of our conversation with Lacy
Mos so. She has a lot of

things to say about that and definitely
I took an edible last night. I

feel like it's still there. All
right, okay, come back brain.

Hi, my name is lacy mostly
I'm an actor, comedian, podcast host

of the show scam gunness, which
is all about rob where you frid and

all those who practice it, and
I play Harper and I carly and I'm

in succeason to have blackly sketch show. Lacy story is about as different as

possible for meg story in the first
part of the show, but I think

it's a lot about who we choose
to spend time with and also why we

slept together for like three years.
I wouldn't even say that we were dating,

but we've always managed to like keep
everything very cordial and like very professional,

which is weird. I did one
of his movies and that's when we

met. He was wearing these really, really tight pants and I just thought,

like, his pants are so tight. That's definitely big dig energy,

like I'm curious, like what's the
wing Wan and them? You know.

So, you know, we started
hanging out and and hang out and it

was fun and we would still work
together on projects and like sometimes that would

get a little tense if I was
like mad at him or he sometimes he

would like ignore my text for like
days, and then one time I just

told him off about it because I
was like this is absolutely ridiculous, like

you should want to be with me. I am a catch and I definitely

shouldn't be chasing after you, and
I just basically drug him. And then

I had to see him for the
premiere of the short film that we did

together, and so after that I
was like Oh, Hey, hey,

I'm just kind of like let it
go, but he was like, I

don't think you know, like how
mean to me you were in that text,

and I was like, oh no, I job, I'd leave the

whole thread my and he was like
no, he and he liked, brought

it up on his phone and like
read it to me and I was like,

okay, out was really dragging you
Um, you desire without but yeah,

sorry, but after that we met
when we move past it and we're

still friends. So is that when
the romantic part of that relationship ended,

though? Did it ever kind of
free kindle or yeah, everytndled, every

kindled. When TMZ picked up the
story about I carly and whatever was happening

with the racism, and I was
just getting like really stressed out and randomly

I was like can I come over? And it's not like I've been seeing

her talking to him regularly, but
I was like can I come over?

And he's so sweet and he let
me come over and I had a really

smart idea. I was really stressed
out. I went to the liquor store,

I bought a like a tiny bottle
of gray girls and I drank it

and then when inside, I've been
there and knows. So we're all the

couch and we're talking and he's just
like wants to like know how I am,

and then I'm like we could just
you know that's excited to just do

something. And then so we did
and then that timey look abottle comes back

into play because I'm just throwing up. Make it to the bathroom, make

it to the bathroom, but I
did it. I threw up on his

fool. More like, Oh my
God, I'm so sorry, so get

out and we cooled it up and
then I fell asleep. But like super

great friend. Yeah, good friends, good friend. Sounds like a place

of trust, right, like there's
a there's a mutual trust between each really

there's nice. Nothing like a good, dramatic, right read of your text

to clear the star and bring you
two together right. I was so going

at the sists like it's got a
big deal. He was like, Oh,

you don't remember them. I do. I was like, Oh,

okay, you're right. That sounds
like that was like a point of communication

that you guys needed to move past
the you know, yeah, the tension,

because then it's like look everywhere you
got, when you see this person,

you give them a church hug with
jaw there. Both bad. And

then we move past that tension.
And I've been single for like eight years.

At sweet it yesterday I was like
I quit. Hmmm. I was

like trying to find a partner takes
a lot of work and energy and you

don't get paid. So I'm quitting. Is Very Ghetto Z. you're out

of him. When I recommend like
I didn't not realize that I had to

have multiple jobs. And then Love
was also a facility that wants me to

clock into, like how what?
It's so time consuming. I'm also single

and I'm like a going on dates
and it's a waste of time and you

don't get your money back for all
these like mediocre wine glasses and like all

these people wasting your time. So
I completely relate to that. So,

after that kind of falling out and
then rekindling of the relationship, did you

creatively work together again on a film
or other voice? Not yet, but

we kind of just orbered each other, you know. So it's like,

Oh, you're working on this and
then I'll be working with the same people

afterwards. So like Scotty Beaven Svobel
came on my podcast and they worked with

him and so we were like talking
about him or whatever. Likes it,

but it's very positive. It's all
good. I literally saw him on Sunday

doing yoga in the park and we
all chatted for a minute and like it's

not weird at all. I think
it's probably also too because, like we

were kind of just fucking, you
know, like it was three years long

and we were friends, but we
never like went out on dates, and

at one point I was like,
Oh, maybe this is could be something

serious, like we maybe this is
the reason I'm not finding anything, and

I talked to me about it.
He was like because we were worth in

Chicago at the same time and I
was like, Oh, well, up

to my hotel and he was like
no, I'm here with my friends,

we're going here and there, and
I was like okay. I was like,

well, we should talk about maybe
getting to know each other and beat

this not just being like animal stick. And then guy, and I think

neither of US felt bad about the
situation that we had currently, but it

was just like maybe we are supposed
to be together, and he was like

no, I don't think so,
but I don't think this is a good

conversation for text, like I really
love to see you in person, and

I was like but what you just
as said no, so what I would

come stay see in person. Why
would I go to a place with my

body where somebody just go tail be
out the things they don't like about me.

Like why would I say like so, you know, subjugate myself today?

That feels abusive to me. HMM. I was just like okay,

Nermie, and then we're still cool. He has one friend that I have

had a crush on for years,
though. HMM. That I was like,

can I do this? I don't
want to mess up the friendship that

we all have because kind of friend
group, but I'm like, HMM,

like still flirting with the idea.
Yeah, do you think you'll go for

it? Let's say, like hypothetically, you guys are like all hanging out

and you're feeling like a vibe from
him. Would you ask your friend about

it first and be like hey,
I'm like thinking about exploring this, or

would you just go for it and
hope for the best? Well, the

thing is is that kind of just
straightforward, which I don't think is a

good tactic for talking the straight man. Very bad idea. So I was

just like, you know, we've
had interest in each other four years,

like I'll this flirting and whatever,
and he's like I know, and I

was like I'd be interested in exploring
that, but I mean we know that

I was with first in for like
three and a half years, but I

was never like really in a relationship
with him, like we're friends, and

he was like, Oh yeah,
I was just fuck it, and I

was like Um, sir, you
don't gotta put it like that. Only

I can put it with okay,
I'm very classy. Don't do me like

it. But so he was like
yeah, I'm interested to getting to know

you, and so over the past
couple weeks he we've been texting and like,

Oh, what do you do to
or Oh, where you live?

Where are you going this weekend?
What's Your Dad's name? Blah, blah,

blah, and it just felt like
kind of dried me, because I

was like if you like me,
like why don't you ask me out on

a date? But he's very busy
and like since yourely is, and so

am I, but I'm like why
not? Making no plans? I was

like you don't want me, you're
not intentional at all, and that's when

I decided to Qui dating because I
was like I'm not gonna here to chase

me all. MMM, I have
shit to do. So it sounds like

so this is like a recent like
exploration that's happened, but maybe the door

is like still a jar, maybe, like it opened and then it kind

of started to close, but it's
not fully closed. Just kind of what

I'm here. Yeah, that's the
situation. I'm just eat it. Oh,

it's actually gonna be the most pretty
clothes, like the crack, just

a crack of a door. Oh
big. Yeah, do you think that

there's any like any secret to staying
friends with an ax? It all depends

on how the relationship ends. If
you guys are respectful, if the relationship

wasn't toxic, if it's just a
realization that you don't want the same things,

I think you can absolutely be good
friends with their exes. Now,

if a situation was toxic, then
know, they die, you don't,

you never think about them again.
You make their little funeral on your Bar

Room and you light them to rest. HMM. What if, like,

after a few years, they come
back and they're like hey, I know

I was like really toxic to you
and I'm really sorry. I'd like to

be friends. Have you ever ever
had anything like that happened? I have

that things like that happen, and
I think that moment is more for that

person than it is for me,
just because you decided to get ush it

together and get all better. Help
cut that kind and start texting your therapist

love on least today. That does
not mean that you need to be reincluded

in my life like back. That
can be done. Lazy story is about

Dudes, right. But she actually
does identify as bisexual, like Francis does.

And all of this had me thinking. Is staying friends with an ax

so hard because a crush and like
an attraction, is so visceral? HMM,

that's a good question. So we're
going to take a hard right turn

here and rewind about twenty six hundred
years. Sounds about right. The ancient

people's practiced and experienced all sorts of
facets of sexualities and expressions of love.

This is nothing new, and the
idea of a woman who loves another woman

can go right back to the seventh
century BC. And you're on the Greek

island of Les boss and you're looking
at a female poet called Cepho, on

Margarite Johnson, on professor of classics
in Ancient History at the University of New

Castle in Australia, Marguerite as the
cultural history and who works primarily in the

realm of the ancient Mediterranean and my
focus is on sexualities and genders in the

ancient Greek and Roman worlds, and
also another part of my cultural inquiries is

into the history of magic and witchcraft
in the ancient world. I'm interested in

the cultural beliefs and practices and everyday
lives of the ancients. So I suppose

that's what a cultural historian does.
You might be wondering why, after a

twenty minutes of Extoc or now in
a completely new place, but hold one,

stay with us. We promise it
will connect. So Sapho, you

me no, was a Greek lyric
poet who's probably rating in about the seventh

century BC. We know very little
that is definitive about her life and well,

she's often been heralded as a lesbian
poet. We have to keep in

mind that the ancient Greeks and Romans
really didn't have a handle on or an

understanding of terminology that would define you
as gay, straight queer. That's that's

really a modern concept, though.
The word lesbian is deraid from the island

or Sappho lived, as some of
you we know, the verb is lesbians

and now that verb is translated in
English has to behave like someone from les

boss, but behaving like someone from
a last boss is much saucier than just

like. In girls, the verb
also means to perform FELICIA. HMM.

So the ancient Greeks and the Romans
thought the people from the island of less

boss during Sappho's time were quite,
what could I say, sexually free,

and CEFO's just sort of put into
that mix. Over the years the word

lesbian has come to me in something
much more specific. But looking back at

Sappho's poetry, which is sublime and
sadly really fragmented, we only have one

complete palm which, considering its thousands
of years old, is not that bad,

I don't think. But in her
poetry she doesn't come out and define

herself or identify herself in any way. She just talks about being attracted to

women and what we would call erotic
rather than explicit. So in poem one,

which is her complete poem, she
sends a prayer out to the Goddess

Aphrodite, who was the goddess of
Sexual Desire, and she asks ephrodity to

cast a spell on this woman and
make this woman fall in love with her.

It only takes a little bit of
detective work, marry says when you

read pieces like palm one, because
she uses female pronouns, and that's the

key. So we know that she's
writing about women a lot of the time,

not because she says on the lesbian
and I want to have sex with

you and blah, Blah Blah.
She'll just use the female pronow she talks

about longing for women. Beautiful Greek
nown a pothos, which means a longing,

a desire to satisfy desire, is
in fragment ninety four, which she

addresses to an unnamed woman. In
fragment ninety six she uses the word him

Ross, and that's also desire.
So she has explicitly a rottic vocabulary directed

at women, but probably not in
the other way we would expect farm all

susion. Here's how we think Francis
and Bobby may perform. Fragment Ninety six.

She thought you were like a goddess, revealed and splendor and found in

your singing and deepest delight. But
now she is conspicuous among the Lydian women,

as when the sun sets, the
Rose fingered moon subdues all the stars.

She throws her light and like across
the salty sea and over flowering fields,

beautiful do is poured down and the
roses flourish, the delicate surevill and

the flowering clover. And often,
as she wanders, remembering Gentle Apics,

Desire Nas in her slender breast and
pain eats out her heart. Safa,

so did we they? We do
it like Francis and Bobby. What do

he do? You? How do
you feel about it? I think we

would impress any writer. We are
so afraid of a snap poetry that now

I think we need to take the
show on the H we're taking it on

the road. I think she composed
poetry. I don't think she actually wrote

it down. She Sung it so
it was easy to memorize and you know,

you looking at the seventh century BCE, a lot of poetry was composed

in an oral tradition and then eventually
it was written down. Now Francis being

the type of poet that she is. She's maybe not like the Sipho kind

of poet, but she is creating
with the spoken word in mind and with

bobby as her amuse. Sure there's
something to be said for the connection.

There there must be. I mean, how old is girl love and poetry

very, very old. I like
the impermanence of us, like the performance

thing a bit a bit sick when
I think about it lasting forever. It

makes me think, can you imagine
if Sapho knew that we're still reading her

rotary thousands of years later? One
of the common expressions you find in Greek

and Latin poets from antiquity is their
understanding of true immortality is that they will

be read at least for a generation. And so she has been read for

so many generations and she's inspired so
many women when women were looking for a

voice to express female desire, from, you know, the renaissance onwards,

right up until second way of feminism
at the beginning of the s. So

we have a cultural debt to her
as well as a poetic debt to her.

It's really interesting when you look at
at Suffo's poetry, because people say,

well, it's universal, we all
feel like this, and I think,

yeah, love is is universal,
and and erotic desire and and suffer.

Describes sort of being set on fire
with unrequited desire and we've all experienced

that, most of us, probably
to varying degree. So she speaks about

the human condition and particularly unrequired desire, and the Greeks called that erross and

Eross is of God. The rass
is also a feeling you have where you

literally feel like you're on fire and
you're losing control if you can't actually satisfy

the desire you have for a particular
person. And yes, she does talk

about universals that I also think what
she shows us is that every person in

every cultural context throughout history has their
own experiences and and love and desire.

They are also individual and they mean
something to the person. And so she

is a person living in a moment
in time and that's her experience and what

she gives to us is she shares
her personal experience in her personal voice and

we can universalize her. But I
also like to see her and every great

love poet is is expressing something of
their own and the gifties they give it

to us. MM. In this
first episode of conversations with friends, we

definitely see that desire and fiery feeling
come in to play at tension after they're

spoken word performance between friends as a
nic craft. You an email. It'll

be full of compliments. been complete
sensances won't require us to make eye contact.

Right, you know the writer Tom
Stop Ours, that's take Murphy.

You'll hear more from him in a
later episode, but when we talk to

him he told us about something called
the quickening. He's a playwright. I

think he wrote Shakespeare in love.
I think he'd be well known for that.

I guess. Please written those lots
of plays and he has this thing

one of his plays. He calls
it the quickening of you heard of this?

MM. So the quickening is when
you you're in a relationship, but

you walk into a room and you
spot someone else and they spot you and

you have an understanding that you are
one of those possibility. HMM. But

you kill it because you're in a
relationship. So that's called the quickening.

It's nice. He coined that in
this in this play, and I love

that because I think that exists all
the time and I think that should always

exist. And the thing about affairs, and what's really brilliant in this in

conversations between Nick and Francis, it's
that they can't there. That quickening is

too much to resist. So do
we think? Is that moment the quickening?

It sounds like it is, and
I think it's much more poetic a

phrase to refer to a crush.
Yeah, I agree, it makes it

feel more profound. Yeah, it
gives. He gives the experience that the

place and the word that it deserves, because you know that magnetic feeling that

you have with that put people would
refer to as love at first sight,

but it's not. It's just an
infatuation with someone that you don't even know.

Yet it's the quickening. It's the
quickening. Its hard to show.

Adam Emmy, this show is hosted
and produced by me, Maggie Bowls and

me. No, I'm Gadweiser.
It's written and edited by me, with

assistant editing by NWAM. Our supervising
producer is Ryan Tillotson, with help from

Tyler Nielsen, Frank Driscoll, Nick
Bailey and the entire Straw hut team.

The music is by Maggie Glass and
square fish, and big thanks to Aria

A, shy, Lauren Thorpe,
Xavior, Salas and Hulutine at show.
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