Psychoanalyzing The Patient : Issues w/ Linda Emond

powered by Sounder

SHOW NOTES

This week we have Sam's Mom! Tune in as Actor Linda Emond joins the show.  

From Straw Hut Media 

album-image
Psychoanalyzing The Patient
On Psychoanalyzing The Patient Podcast, we’ll take a peek behind the scenes, talking to the cast and crew about what it was like to create these darkly complicated characters. We’ll also play armchair psychologists, talking to experts in the field of psychology, uncovering the themes and motivations of the characters, speculate about their past, and plot their fate. Hosted by Stacey Nye and Lindsay Jones Original Music by Kyle Merritt From Straw Hut Media 

Episode transcripts


Straw media. Hi and welcome topsychoanalyzing the patient podcast. Join me,
stacy and I and me Lindsay Jones, as we try to uncover each character's
dynamics by talking to experts in thefield of psychology, as well as members
of the cast and crew. Sodon't be late, our session begins now.
Okay, here we are. We'reback for episode three of the patient
and, as always, if somehowyou are listening to this podcast and you
have not yet watched episode three ofthe patient, I always have to ask
you, what are you doing?Stop listening to this right now and go
watch the show on Hulu, thencome back, hit play on this and
we can pick up from where heleft off. But for those who have
lots of the episode, episode threeof the patient, if you remember,
at the end of episode two wesaw a figure slowly descending the stairs with
a cane that was going to UmConfront Alan, and as episode three begins,
we realize that this person is candice, who is Sam's mother, and
we understand that we are in candice'shome. Sam has moved in here after
he and his wife Split Up.Um, although Alan is really trying to
not reveal any of the things thatgo on in the therapy session with what
the therapy session that he has beenkidnapped and forced to perform. But still
he's not revealing anything from this sessionbecause he is a professional therapist. Um.
Candice Actually reveals that she's a hugefan of Alan's books and suggested that
perhaps Sam should seek him out fortherapy. But when Alan asks her to
call the police, she is veryclear that she cannot and will not turn
in Sam. She doesn't support himin terms of what he has been doing,
but she believes that he is tryingto stop and that if he receives
the correct therapy from Alan, everythingmight turn out okay. Um. Sam
Returns later with Food and Alan admitsthat he did in fact meet Sam's mother,
Um Uh. And so you cantell already that this is unsettling,
and Alan sort of says, Hey, what if we were to have you
and your mother in the therapy session, um, together. Um. So
that happens during the episode where Samand Candice are in the therapy together.
Um. It appears that they don'tmake a whole lot of progress and that
Sam is really not open to anyinterpretation other than his own in terms of
how things went in their lives.Um. At another point in the episode,
we see Alan Meditating and thinking backon his life, thinking back specifically
to the wedding of his son,which was clearly an Orthodox Jewish wedding.
Um. His wife, Alan's wife, UH, wants to sing a song
in celebration of the couple, butof course in Orthodox Judaism, women performing
music is against the rules, andso while the mother makes a really wonderful
attempt to sing a song for thecouple, Um, a number of men
in the audience get up and leavethe room as they are offended by a
woman performing music, and you cansee that Ezra, their son, looks
deeply uncomfortable. Um. In themiddle of the therapy session, Um Alan
sort of challenges Um Sam too tryto think of his mother when he is
having these dark impulses to want tokill people, and asks him to think
of his mother as a way ofpreventing him from acting on his impulses to
go out and kill. They askedif he will be willing to do that,
and Sam doesn't respond. Finally,Um, we learned towards the end
of the episode that Sam has beenvisiting the Greek restaurant with the potential victim
that he had discussed previously with Alanon the episode that he went back to
that and just waited outside the restaurant. Did Not confront the man, but
clearly was thinking about it, eventhough he did not act upon it as
it yet. Um, as theepisode ends, we are in bed with
Alan and suddenly he is awakened bythe truck arriving. Um, that is
SAM's truck and we are horrified tosee that Sam is dragging a body up
to the house. For a momentwe're unclear whether that person is alive or
not, and then it's very clearthat that person is alive. Their eyes
have been tape shut and they haveand then Sam brings that body, drags
it into another room in the basementand slams the door and that's the end
of the episode. Super Creepy,creepy. Sam was so menacing. He
was so menacing looking in that moment. Yeah, very menacing. Yeah,
like and you're really like, youreally are like, Oh my God,
is this the moment he snapped oris this the is this just another moment
that Alan will have to live with? And the way that episode ends,
I don't know about you, Stacey, but I was like what, it's
over, you've got to be kiddingme. What happens now? Well,
they all seem to end on acliffhanger like that. Um, it's very
true. And so it seems tome like, Um, that Sam may
not have listened to Alan's advice about, Um, thinking of his mother before
acting out. Yeah, I mean, clearly he's got he's dragging a body
across the room. So yeah,clearly did not really heed the advice very
well of not doing anything. Thatdidn't work. Um, unclear what will
happen next. So I think that'sa good lead in right to our show
today. Definitely is. Yeah,I mean, let's talk about the lynchpin
of this episod Soode, and whoreally is the person who said all of
this in motion? Stacy, tellus who our guest is today. Actress
Linda Eamon is on the show today. She is a three time Tony Award
nominee and is the recipient of theLucille rtel award, an outer critics award
and in Obie. She plays CandiceFortner, Sam's mom on the show,
and we have so many questions forher. HIGHLANDA welcome. I bet you
have questions. We do, somany questions do. We are so excited
to have you with us today.Um, before we get into the patient,
which is definitely the thing we're goingto talk about the most, I
just wanted to talk to you justbriefly just because for my own curiosity,
Um, when we were first lookingup guests for this show, Um,
we were like, do we haveany connections to find people? And I
work in theater, that's basically myjob, and so I was sort of
doing research stuff and I have tosay I was so excited to find out
that you seem to have kind ofgotten your start in Chicago Theater, which
is where I got my start andI still actually would still have a place
in Chicago and go back there andwork all the time. But I sort
of feel like once you start outin Chicago theater, you're sort of always
known as a Chicago theater person onsome level from that point on, and
I just wanted to ask you alittle bit about how you started in Chicago
and how that might have led youto the patient. I Love Chicago.
I'm really glad that it was atthe beginning of my career and I ended
up there because right at the timethat I was leaving Grad School Um,
Chicago was being pointed out as thehottest theater town in America. I think
both time and Newsweek. Around thattime, Stepan Wolf had won the Tony,
the regional Tony, and they weredoing had been doing such remarkable work
for a long time, and soI knew that I'd been doing all this
training in theater and it seemed weirdto me to go to L A and
because my master's were he was intheater, and then Um and New York.
I had a misguided notion that ifI went to New York I would
probably just work out of town allthe time, and but all these arrows
were pointing to Chicago. So Iwent to Chicago and it is a great
it's a great city anyway period.I love it still. I get there
a lot, but it is agreat place to start as an actor because
it has a remarkable theater community.It has a great nonet company community of
Non Equity, which means there's thisreally great underbelly of fantastic work that's being
done all the time and that feedsinto the equity productions and oftentimes I'm sure
it's better than the equity productions,but you know, there's this, there's
a lot of work being done andalso Chicago, with its industrial roots,
is a very feet on the groundkind of city. City abroad shoulders,
as Sandbrok said, and I thinkthere's a a great work ethic there.
And so, as an actor tohave started out there. You do the
work, you tell a good story, you go home. Um, there's
not a lot of expectation of willwe go to Broadway, or will this
be whatever? Will I become reallyfamous? You're really doing the work to
do the work, and that's,uh, what I started with and and
loved about it and still love aboutit and I think it's stuck with me
all these years. That's really cool. I think one of the things that
I have responded to the most workingin Chicago Theater is, Um, it's
a it's a super supportive community.Um, it really you know, people
are really there for one another andthe emphasis, like you said, because
nobody goes to Chicago to work intheater to get rich, you know what
I mean, or they to findstardom, they're really there to do the
work with one another, that thereis an emphasis on the Acting Company really
as an ensemble. You know thatthey're really like a group working together.
And so when you look at ashow like the patient, that really feels
it in one way. It feelsvery theatrical. It feels kind of like
a play to a large set,and it also feels like I'm watching a
company of actors of sorts. Youknow what I mean, that it's not
an assembled set of guest stars.It really is a group of people in
a very tight knit sort of group, sort of bringing the story to life.
Do you do you feel that theaterconnection at all when you're working on
the show? Yeah, absolutely,I think for the reasons that you said.
By the way, Chicago also hasit has more and more film television
stuff now too, so people aredoing that there. But, Um,
I do I feel like the factthat, Um, almost everything I did
was on one set. Basically,a ton of what Steve did was on
one set. Um, you know, we were all in that basement for
a long time, and against Steveespecially, but it felt like that.
And also, yes, because itwas such a tight small group that,
you know, different shows you're workingwith a different number of people, but
it was very tight. I onlyworked with Steve and a little with Donald
UH and emily who played, youknow, his ex wife at one point,
but almost all of it was reallywith Steve and so yeah, you
you build up a rapport and itdoes feel very tighten it. The other
thing is that the level of thescripts, because the Jays, as they're
known, um, those scripts areextraordinary and they're extremely tight and concise and
you don't screw around with them.You don't need to, Um, you
say what's there on the page andthey've done a lot of the work for
you and that level of writing issomething that I have been lucky enough to
have in so much of my theaterwork through the years. So it was
very friendly way to to work allaround, excellent. Alright, so the
Jays, just to clarify, theJays are Joel fields and Joe Weissberg,
who are the creators of the showand the executive priest. Yes, thank
you. Thanks, Lindsay. Ijust I just want to comment on that
because, Um, there's a lotof talk in the community about how or
the episodes are and some people don'tlike that. They want more, they
feel cheated, but I love it, Um. I think just what you
were saying. I mean I Idon't really know anything about how to write
a screenplay, let me just saybut I love that the episodes are they're
sure. Every word matters. Everyword, every line, every nuance is
relevant. There's no fluff going onand so I think that everything that goes
on is really like, you know, a real nugget of, you know,
information, and because I'm I'm thepsychologist and I'm psychoanalyzing every single word
that happens on the show, Ithink it's really great. You know,
they cut. They also cut alot. That's really common in film and
Television. Um, you tend toovershoot a bit Um and they also found
so they streamlined it even more.There are a couple of there are a
couple of scenes that I did,but I think everyone did. But there
are a couple of scenes I didthat aren't there and within the scenes they're
often are little excisions, and sothey really made it even tighter. But
I agree with you, Lindsay thatI well, I've heard, stacy,
like you, that I have friendsof mine who said they're screaming at the
television when it's over because they sayto cut it out. This is unfair.
And they are upset, but thepeople that I know are upset in
a good way. And also someone'sone of my friends said the other day,
which I think is so true,that there is uh, I don't
like, frankly, like that.As as satisfying as it can be to
binge watch something, I don't reallyget that. I given that the nature
of this kind of television there's athere's a great thing that happens, and
here I am with a lot oftheater background and that's something you sit down
and you watch it at the end. But there's a great benefit to the
way television is that you have towait and that it allows for your system
to absorb everything. There's usually enoughof a recap in the next step.
So too you know Um and butI think, especially in a case like
this, there is all the moresuspense and pain and frustration and tension that's
built up because you've got to waitand think about it and wonder about it
and be in some cases worried aboutit. You know what is coming around
the corner next. That, Ithink benefits to show a lot and I
love that they experimented with having itbe not an hour long drama but a
less than half hour drama. Ithink it's a great experiment that's really paying
off. The show definitely seems sofar. Every episode ends on like a
cliffhanger that is always like Ah,what, you know, it's you're always
want to know what's happening next.So they really seem to have have perfected
the idea of giving us just enoughto get involved and yet leave us wanting
work. And you know, theydid that even more that. I think
it's fair to say this that,Um, the episode that I show up
in really is is obviously I'm atthe very end of two, but you
don't know it's me episode one ofthe second episode, but I show up
really in the third episode. However, has written that scene that to the
top of the third episode was actuallyat the end of the second episode originally,
and so the cliffhanger was that youwere left with saying like, what
the what? She's his mother andshe's living upstairs. And instead they create
even more tension by you only seeingsomeone coming down the stairs and the poker,
and I thought it was a brilliantchoice because once again you're creating even
more tension by saying first what,who? What, and then you get
the while up of finding out thatit's his mom. So my that's my
first question is, why do youhave this poker like are are you like
maybe afraid of WHO's down there likethat you have to protect yourself from whoever
might be down there? No,she knows who's down there. She absolutely
knows that. It's sure okay.So, yeah, that's what I thought
too, is when you come downthe stairs and you see a man shamed
up in your basement. What Ifound almost right away, what I was
struck by, is how totally unphasedyou are by that picture, that you're
just like, I'm surprised. Youseem completely like you. I don't want
to say your feel okay about it, but you seem like you have you're
not panicked, you're not like,Oh my God, let me help you
get you free. There are noneof the typical reactions to seeing a person
chain in a basement, would normallybe no, but she doesn't know he's
there. Um, I think that'sactually clear in the writing of it.
But Um, that she she talksabout how she recommended, she knows who
he is. She in fact he'swritten one of her favorite books. Clearly
she's the one who recommended him,Um, and also recommended therapy period.
And so, Um, she knowshe's done this and so, Um,
the poker, to answer your question, stacy, is Um. I think
there's still a fear of could heget she hasn't seen the set up,
so she doesn't really know. Sheknows he's chained. I'm sure she knows
he's locked down there, but ishe capable of? Has He broken the
chain? Has Is he capable ofsomething or whatever? and Um, I
think it's a sign also that sheknows how awful this is, that it
is awful. So I like thefact that the poker in her hand is
in some ways conflicted to her her. Um, you know, we we
loved the idea and I love theidea and really work to have the idea
of that. One of the oddestthings is that she is normal, quote
unquote. She's not, of courseshe's totally out of her mind, but
but you can imagine her, youcan imagine her outside in the world with
a regular job, because she hasone. And you know, we came
up with one, and know likewhat she did and everything else. Then
all of that, you know,it's true. But yes, I think
she knows when she she absolutely not. I think she she knew. Knew
when she came down the stairs thatshe was there. She she knew he
was there the whole time. Allright, so now we're going to move
into the part of this podcast wherewe're gonna attempt to ask you questions about
your character and about the show,but we definitely do not want to accidentally
get you to reveal any spoilers ofanything that we don't necessarily know as of
episode three of the patient. SoI've come up with a plan of how
to do this, which is thatevery week on the podcast we're going to
take whatever the food is that wasserved in that week's episode and that will
be the safe word. So ifwe ask you a question and you're like
you feel uncomfortable answering that question,this week's safe word is pastizio. That
was this week's Pastizio, which isa Greek pasta served to Steve Carell's character
after Um Sam goes back to therestaurant to check on his stential victim.
I would like to interject and saythat one of my favorite little things that
was missing from the show was takenout. Was a small scene that I
had with Steve Uh in this episode. Maybe it might have been in the
next episode, doesn't matter because it'snot there, in which I won't even
tell you the little interaction we had, but it was another in a line
of odd interactions. And as I'mleaving to go up the stairs, he's
asks me, do you have anymore of the Pastizio and I say no,
I ate it. I'm sorry,I ate it. I'm sorry,
I ate it, and that wasone of my favorite things. I was
really sad to have missing. Butokay, so carry on. Pastizio is
the safe word. I've got it. Thank you. I just want to
say that anecdote has literally made thisentire podcast. Thank you appreciate that.
Was Awesome. Um, okay,so like this, this is my big
question for you with this character,which is you play the other of a
serial killer and you seem on somelevel aware of what he is capable of,
even if it's unclear how much youknow as to what he has done,
and that you see that he isseeking help and you are recommending help
for him. And we also knowfrom Sam's backstory that he blames this on
his father, which is technically wouldhave been your husband, your character's husband.
So I guess my biggest question ishow responsible do you think the mother
feels for this situation? I mean, I feel like when we see like
mass killers, for example, peoplewho do horrible things, one of the
questions that always gets thrown out rightaway is what was the parenting light?
How are they brought up? Whatwhat? WHO COULD BE? Where were
they or where were they? Yeah, it's true, and so I guess,
in terms of playing your character,how much of that do you factor
into what you're doing? Fundamentally,Lindsay and Stacy, I am not going
to answer this question. But thereason the reason I'm not going to.
I mean, I will in asense, but I won't in a sense,
and that's because I think that achefor you to understand. It is
inherent to the drama of the storyand that there are things that will be
made clearer. Um, but Ithink that there I can tell you,
and I think you won't be surprisedby this, there is not going to
be some it's wrapped up in anutshell, you know, kind of thing,
and that's partly because of the natureof the human mind, Um,
the nature of human emotions, thenature of lives lived that are wounded and
or damaged and how the psyche resolvesthat in order to carry on. What
does happen in a child, ina in a house in which there was
an extremely violent man and um whowas violent to both of them, but
it was extremely violent Um, andhow did you cope? And yes,
there is fault all around in avariety of places, uh, but there
is no particular finger that can bepointed specifically. You know, it's far
more of a mess than that.Life is far messier than that, and
so I was really interested, withthe Jays the writers, in having it
be I mean, you know,one of the one of the strange things
about Sam and Um and also,as we know, of some people who
commit horrible crimes, is their abilityto seem quite normal in the rest of
their life and yet they are harboringa terrible, terrible secrets. I think
it's what makes this story all themore terrifying as you watch it. But
it's true, and we know itout there, that it exists, Um,
that there are people who just flipand you there are some stories that
you hear people will go, ohwell, I knew it was going to
happen or he was always weird orwhatever, and that is the case,
I think, with Sam some there'ssome of that that shows up. But
I think also that part of thescariness of this are the ways in which
we all um find a way through, ignore, deny, and the Jay's
are taking that to an enormous extremeby having in something who too does these
things that are on a horrific level. But I think as it goes through
and you learn more about all ofthe characters, I think some of those
things will will become clear. But, as I said, the reason I
don't want to go into exactly myparticular reasons or the history that I built
is because I think absolutely part ofthe story is in your journey as a
viewer with that sense of madness andthat you can't quite get your head around
me the candice, I should say, as a character, and that's part
of the tension of the story.You know, and I want to say
like, I really am so gladthat you're here because again, as as
a therapist, I really wanted Umto talk to the mom Um, but
also as a mother. So I'mI'm watching this show and I'm relating to
candice as a mother and I'm alsothinking about her as as as as I'm
a therapist and I've done plenty offamily sessions, let me just say so.
And mothers, traditionally in therapy havegotten a very bad rap. Right,
mothers have been blamed for years andyears and years, and we don't
you know, Moms, I think, nine percent of the time, are
just doing the best they can.And so I'm watching your portrayal and I
want to say I think that youdo a really great job of both being
a little creepy, but I sympathizewith her because as a mother, I
think about well, what would Ido? I would like to think of
my child did this. I wouldturn him in. But I can see
that she wants to protect him andshe thinks that she's doing the right thing.
Candice thinks that she's doing the rightthing here, you know, to
help him get better. And youknow, we MOMS sometimes think we're doing
the right thing and maybe we're doingthe completely wrong thing. Um, and
as a therapist, I appreciate howyou know also that you must have been,
you know, traumatized in this relationshipand you're you're doing the best you
can. Um, one thing Iwant to say is that the you know,
there's there's references in that first sceneto the fact that she she you
know, you can infer that shesought help because in her own way,
she never says something about specifically therapy, but although I do think she probably
did, but she talks about herbooks and that she read all these books
and in our discussions in history sheread a lot of them and it just
so happens that Dr Strouss is isone of her absolute favorites. You know,
absolutely she was greatly helped by it, she felt like, and so
there was a desire on her part, obviously too, figure out some of
what's going on and what was goingon and what was going on with with
herself, and so she recognizes,and admittedly does in that first by those
references, I think, to thefact that she um well and she clearly
believes in therapy. Yeah, Imean that seems clear that by the way
that she seems so present in thetherapy scene in which she's asked to attend
Um, although it does seem likeSam is quite resistant to this idea,
and then once um she begins sortof offering her ideas that Sam seems to
kind of shut them down fairly quickly. Yeah, I think she loves that
therapy session. Can I just say? I mean I think the fact that
she's in a therapy session with DrStrauss, Dr Alan Strouss, who wrote
like her favorite or one of herfavorite therapeutic books, with her son.
You know, I think this issort of her dream in a way.
And of course, the we allknow it's utterly bizarre because she's sitting there
in the therapist is chained up tothe floor and it's all insane. But
if you try to remove that,which of course is what she obviously does
an enormous amount in her life,is an attempt to compartmentalize. And we
all do this and I think that, um, as maybe one gets more
and more unhealthy, you compartmentalize moreand more and more. And of course
you're doing that to protect yourself,sometimes either from your inability to face things
yourself and or UM, your fears, your trauma, your you know,
whatever it is. But Um,she obviously does an awful lot of that.
Yeah, and I mean it makesme wonder. I mean I will
tell you, Linda, an episodeone of our podcasts we interviewed a psychologist
who is very clear with us thatas far as he knew, there he
had never heard of anyone who had, who had been a serial killer who
could be cured through therapy. Andthen an episode two of our podcast we
had another psychologist who was an expertin malevolent creativity and we asked him could
a person be converted from so whenwho is interested in malevolent creativity and move
over to benevolent creativity? And heseemed equally convinced that that was probably not
possible. Which then brings me tothe question, which is, what do
we think candicees endgame goal is?Is it too hopefully have her son cured
and one day Um walk amongst menwithout any difficulty? Is it to have
him ultimately commit himself to care?What do we think? What are her
goals for her son? Do wethink for him to be cured? Absolutely,
for him to live a normal life. I mean, I think that's
just a UH, completely understandable,primal maternal, you know, desire for
her son to have his best lifeUm, but I also think that,
you know, is she completely convincedof that on other levels and deeper levels?
I don't know. Or maybe we'llfind out. Maybe we won't,
but but the fact is, andalso, you know, does Dr Strauss
think so? You know, Um, I think we have to remember also,
yes, the circumstances that everyone's in. So the actions that he is
taking, for example, Um,you know, nothing should be taken completely
at face value because for him especially, the stakes are so high and he's
obviously trying to save his life.So I was always fascinated in working with
steve on at and or in watchingthe work and certainly in watching the final
product. Was All of those amazingbecause I think Steve is just dropped it
brilliant in it and the choices thathe makes, constantly leaving US guessing,
wondering, aching at what is truethat he's saying what's not. You know,
what is he having to say?There's so much that he had to
submerge, you know, in hisself. Steve talked about he's just one
of the nicest people on the planetto by the way, but he talked
about how exhausted he was from doingit and part of it was that.
You know, he may seem insome of those seems, some of the
scenes anyway, like there's a relativecalm in a sense, or that he
sort of has it together and isworking through as a therapist. But I
am rather certain that that's not whathe was feeling inside. You know,
he's locked up and thinking that hemight be be dead in any second.
And, as you say, Iwonder too, did does he recognize that
this is not solvable. Really,you can't solve this, you know,
these people are are too far gone. And so that's his version of that.
And yes, what is candice's versionof that? You know, but
Um, but I do think clearlythat for me it was there was an
ever, a question of, Ithink, on some great level, of
you know, Big Sky Dreams.She absolutely wishes and hopes that her husband
could have a I mean her husband. Oh, that was weird. Get
it stay, Um, but youknow that that her son could, could
have could somehow be cured. Ofcourse that's what she wants. So I
think you just raised a really interestingpoint, Linda. That Um, because
the solute one of the solutions thathe offers is, well, maybe you
won't act out in this way foryour mom, and I'm sure that candice
loved that idea, you know.Um. And yet I'm I don't think
people can do that. I mean, I've treated clients for thirty years and
no one can get better for theirmom but given what you just said,
it makes me wonder, because hereally needs to continue to you know,
like maybe maybe candice is his freedom, is his ticket to freedom and Um,
if he can, you know,try to help uh Sam but also
kind of befriend candice in some way, maybe this will help. And there's
a moment. So so there's that, but there there's this moment when he
asks her for the key and Um, she says, I don't have the
key and I don't believe her.She's a little dismissive at that moment Um.
It seems like she's a little defensive. I think she knows where the
key is. You don't have totell me, but I think, I
think candice knows where the key is. I think that's a great moment of
encapsulating a little bit anyway, thatyou you were picking up on something with
me and that, no matter what, it's a bit of a just excuse,
I mean, because to just usethat and go I don't have the
key is I mean she even knowsthat. She's saying that that that's not
really answering the question. He's gettingat. You know, they're they're frankly,
obviously a lot of things she coulddo to change the situation Um and
I think she knows that in thein the moment, but that's the one
that she says to basically as anexcuse to kind of just get out of
that moment. Anyway. You know, and don't have a key, so
I can't, I can't unlock you, and so to me it even makes
sense that she maybe doesn't have thekey. I'll leave that again up to
the audience to guess what they thinkor not. But that but the thing
is is that in my response toit, I think I was trying to
lean toward the idea that she recognizes, though, that he's he's asking a
bigger question, which is for herhelp, and you know she's at this
moment anyway not going to give itfor the sake of her son and the
key itself is just one thing.But you know, so maybe she actually
doesn't have the key, as mypoint, but that is she recognizes that.
That isn't she wouldn't get the keyanyway. You know what I mean?
She wouldn't do it anywhere. Herresponse is a little defensive though or
something. And so, Um,yeah, maybe I had an interesting time.
I had an interesting time because youknow, when I when I um,
I did read for this part.You know, I did audition for
this part and it was really ofthe rest of the story. They talked
me through some of it, butthey didn't even have all the scripts written
yet, you know. So somesome of it was that and some of
it was saved and I I didn'tyet understand completely what her purpose was going
to be in the whole of thestory. And also, yes, it
was very tricky to me to findthe line of I knew that they had
written some humor in it Um andI also knew there was this normalcy they
were going for. And I rememberwhen I read with them and then with
Steve, we had it was allzoom, of course, but we did
what's called sort of a chemistry read, which is kind of funny to do
a chemistry read over zoom, butwe did and we we did the scenes
and we sort of worked on thescenes for a bit. It was very
tricky and we tried them in.I was given direction in every different direction
and some of that was because Ithink we all knew it was tricky to
find what that balance was. Andat the end of meeting them I even
said to them quite candidly which couldhave cost me the job but didn't,
but I said quite candidly I wantto tell you I don't yet get it
completely. I don't yet know howto do this. I think I can
and I can figure it out,but I don't completely know what you've written
as something really tricky and complicated,and it wasn't. And they gave me
the job, which is great.But it wasn't really until between those meetings
and Um and doing this, gettingshowing up to do some pre production stuff
in rehearsals and then ultimately the showthat I discovered it and I played around
a lot and though I don't wantto tell you you know exactly what I
found, it would give some thingsaway. But I do think, Stacy,
that you're picking up on things thatI I think we're we're are quite
purposeful on my part about having herbe someone who, Um, is a
lot of a person, wedged intoa normal life and given the extremities of
what she's gone through in her lifeand goes through still with her son,
was a serial killer. Um,I think that her coping mechanisms work for
her at times better than others.I think there is a self centeredness to
her and even indulgence in her whichis pretty intense and Um that, therefore,
I think that even Dr Strauss cansay something to her. I think
there is some defense. I thinklike I always thought when I walked down
those stairs at the first time andI and even introduce myself at first.
He says I'm Dr Strauss and Iapologize and said I'm you know, I'm
Sam's mother. That I think sheknows, when she says I'm Sam's mother,
that you know, that's kind ofinsane. I think she knows that.
I think she's half prepared, therefore, for him to be rude to
her or to say, you know, you're a crazy bitch or something.
You know what is going on,and the fact that he doesn't, which
is of course very smart on hispart, also throws her off guard a
little bit but makes her able toopen up. But every now and then
when he gets into realms of thingswhere he pokes a little bit. Yeah,
I think she can go to aplace of defensiveness because I think actually
probably in her daily life, Ithink she probably has a lot of that
kind of thing. I think she'sprobably very Um. I think there is
a victim aspect to her, victimizeand she really is a victim, and
also there's a part of her thathas fallen into that world and I think
in her reading there's probably ways inwhich she's gone down a road of self
indulgence. Um, because I thinksome of that makes sense to me,
that that is what can help herto overlook some of the common sense aspects
of I mean, anybody, obviously, who has two limited a view of
the world is going to miss the, you know, literally, the larger
perspective of what is going on andthat limited you can sometimes be because the
cameras all are turned inside turned towardoneself, and I think for her the
cameras are turned very much to herselfand her son and making it much harder
for her to put everything that's happenedinto some kind of perspective. But I
will add that I also think it'smaybe impossible for her to open the Camera
Lens. Let's say why? BecauseI think it would kill her, you
know. I mean, I thinkthat's the thing that your story of talking
about creating a character, while thewriting of the episodes were still in process.
It's fascinating to me because you're reallysort of building this character arc without
necessarily even knowing where it's headed,and you really have. It's a huge
sort of leap of faith, Ithink, to jump into that and to
just sort of make it, makeup the parts of your character's personality based
on the revelations as they come throughthe script and much in the same way
that we're seeing those revelations as viewersin the end. Do you do you
remember a moment or something that theJay's might have said to you that really
made it click for you, whereyou really thought, okay, I get
it now, I know what I'mdoing. Yeah, I know, I
was by myself and it was Iwas still in New York, Um,
where I live, and Um,I I knew that they are such good
writers and I could tell that itwas in there, even if I didn't
yet have the story. I feltlike they know, they do know something
fundamental about what she is, eventhough, you know, we were all
still kind of finding it and whereit's at. But Um, I did.
I just kept experimenting for over aperiod of days in this one point
where I just thought I have tocrack through something here, and I experimented
with just saying her. I can'tremember how many episodes I had by that
time, maybe six or something,and I just kept going through all the
scenes and I just kept reading themand I would even just experiment and reading
them in different ways. And itactually was a day in which I sort
of went for all of the humorand made her her you know what,
I knew she couldn't end up beingcompletely but I made her really sort of
ridiculous actually in her self involvement,and I made her kind of ridiculously Um,
you know, the kind of personfor whom everything just overwhelms her and
well, you know that kind ofthing. And it was, it wasn't
it? Except there was something init that I recognized was her, and
I think, to answer your question, it was that. And it was
the amount of actually self involvement,Um, her own, you know,
self involvement in herself that made itstart to make sense to me, because
that began and it was really itwas like I could have made the part
really funny, like it has thepotential to be that. And although it's
funny in places, because they wrotesome of that in for sure. Uh,
there are parts of it that areso audacious and ridiculous that they're there,
but I do think they're there asthis sort of pressure cooker kind of
internal stuff that's going on with ahuman being that is, Um, you
know, kind of ridiculous, butshe's deeply, deeply Um self involved.
Wait, does that make sense whenI'm saying actually, it's kind of poetic
in a way that in order tofind your character on a show about material
killers, you have to go toan extreme, which is basically what the
whole show is. No, I'mtotally I'm totally wowed by what you said,
Linda, because I think that wasI mean, I just think that
was the totally right way to go, because if you had made her funny,
I don't think we would have hadany sympathy for her, and it's
really, really important that we wekind of Um, you know, we
have to have a little bit ofsympathy for candice because she's in this position.
It's really easy to hate her andbe so mad at her and just
say, just unlock him already,but you know, she's deeply wounded herself
and you had to find some youhave to find some way too for you.
I mean again, I don't knowanything about acting, but for you
to for you to be able toconnect to her so that you could play
her authentically. Yeah, there are, there are, there are places to
where they're in in upcoming seasons,where there's even just a single line here
there, where it's encapsulated, suddenlyencapsulated. And as I was doing that
thing of reading through and was readingin a particular way, there were certain
lines that just suddenly came to wildlife. And so it's a meeting of you
know, the creative process, basicallywith a great piece of text and you
land on something that opens a doorand that's what it feels like and then
that door opens, another door,opens another door. And that was,
for me, a turning point,was recognizing that and was reckoned zing Um.
And again, the reasons for theself involvement Um a kind of either,
well, I'll just say self involvementUm, you know, can be
tragic and or deeply awful and aredeeply painful and or because of trauma and
or there can be many reasons whyum human beings go to certain levels of
that where they just can't it's verydifficult for them to see beyond themselves or
beyond a very small world that theybecome very attached to, that they feel
okay in. And I do thinkthat candice is Um deep love of her
son Um. How much guilt isthere is, I think, to be
answered and clarified as time goes on, maybe, but her ability to even
deal with levels of that or whatshe allowed her son to go through,
and that how you know, allthose are questions that are out there and
that's certainly had varying levels of impactalong the way. But the place that
she feels like things are possible,bowl, which goes back to when you
asked me, stacy earlier. Youknow, what would she what does she
really want? Is when you livein the world of what's possible, you
know, you just ache for Um, some kind of normalcy and for those
who are closest to you and thatyou love, and that's what she aches
for desperately. Wow, yeah,wow, I didn't realize there was so
much psychology and acting. There's alot. Oh Yeah, you have to
know. You know no, whenyou come in a door, any door,
you know. I mean there arezillion different ways of studying acting or
doing acting or or but I thinksome friends of mine were just saying this,
but I've heard that. I've hadthis conversation with people through the years.
We're sort of surprised that the thatthe psychiatric world, the therapeutic world,
doesn't study actors more because, Um, it's absolutely an enormous amount of
what we do, just the processof what we do, is we is,
you know, strange. And thefact that we can inhabit another person
in a sense, the fact thatwe create these other beings with, yes,
specific psyches. Because when you again, there's very different ways of creating
characters, and I use different waysin different projects, and there's very different
ways of working and even basic youknow, obviously there are tons of different
ways of teaching acting and methods ofacting, let's say, but fundamentally there's
certain things about you know, there'sa story and why are you in the
story? What is your responsibility andthe telling of the story? And then,
on a smaller level, when youwalk through a door, yes,
what do you want? What isit that you are speaking in that because
that happens to all of us.We walk in the door and obviously stories
for dramatic or comic purposes are storiesthat are more elevated, where the stakes
are higher, and this particular storythe stakes are wildly high. Um.
But you know, yeah, whenCandice Walks, when candice agrees, when
she hears him call her and agreesin that moment to go ahead and in
that door and go down there,UM, which Sam says later she doesn't
usually come down come down there.You know what is it that's in her
mind and as an actor, youare you're working from all of those steps.
You also, frankly, it helpsyou to think of all the things
around that too, by the way, like what was she just doing?
What was she doing upstairs? Whatwas she doing last night? What was
she doing when when Dr Strouss wasscreaming? She was in the house.
He was screaming that first night.We know he was. Um, you
know, what is she doing?So you have all of that that,
you build those things in and then, yes, you come through the door
and then you're you're thinking what whatis she expecting? What might she see?
What might happen? Yes, whenshe introduces herself, is he going
to just scream at her? What'she going to do? And all of
that. You take these steps asyou move forward and make sense of of
a scene that carries you the endof why that scene good writing. Each
scene is very purposeful in taking stepsforward in the story. So, as
an actor, you're trying to seehow am I part of that to take
it forward? What needs to betold in this scene to take this straight
forward? And yes, an enormousamount of of psychological emotional journey, though
again, it varies, you know, project to project and material to material,
but this one was obviously packed withwith a psychological emotional journey for all
of us. Wow, that's great. What will happen next? I think
this does set us up really wellfor the next episode of the patient.
We're so excited to have you withus today, Linda. Thank you so
much for speaking with us. Thishas been great. You're welcome. I'm
really really I was really meaningful tobe a part of the show. It's
such an incredible group. I thinkyou will be Um all the more taken
with the show as it goes on. I felt as I watched it.
It's hard to say this because theshow is so good already, but I
think it just gets better and betterand more and more interesting and challenging and
thrilling and sad and awful and also, you know, all those things as
it goes along. But so Ienvy you the ability to, uh,
to be watching it with fresh eyes. Thank you so much. We really
enjoyed talking to you, and goodluck with the show and all the other
projects that you're working on. Thankyou so much, you guys. It
was really a pleasure to talk toyou. To Take Care of Linda.
Thank you. That was freaking amazing. Um. I loved every minute of
that interview with Linda. Um.Yeah, I I think that I there
were so many things I loved aboutit and I loved that she talked about
one of the things I love wasthe way she talked about the psychology of
acting, Um, which I hadto anticipated. Yeah, I mean it's
it's definitely you know, I thinkone of the things that you you learn
being an actor, and I'm sayingthis as a former actor myself, Um,
is that it really is the studyof human beings and you have to
you have to figure out their logicin order to be able to portray it,
and I thought she did an amazingjob of really explaining not only her
sort of philosophy but her her process, and also I thought it was really
interesting that this show clearly wasn't easy, you know what I mean, like
it wasn't the kind of show wherean actor just walks in and feels like,
Oh yeah, I totally know what'sgoing on here. You know that
that really took some work to findit. Um with that work has really
really paid off in these incredibly richand nuanced performances. Well, and I
really Um appreciated the part of theconversation. So I made this comment about
when, Um, he when AlanAsks for the keys and she says,
I don't have the keys, andI was picking up on something in her
tone and you know, because I'mpsychoanalyzing it right and Um, I love
that she said I was right thatthat that I was picking up on something.
and Um, and then we hadthis whole conversation about how she had
to and you kind of just alludedto that. She had to figure the
character out. She I would imagine, she had to find some sympathy for
the character, Um, and howit didn't happen right away for her.
And she told us about the momentwhen it happened and I just never knew
that. You know, why wouldi? But that was really fascinating.
Yeah, I mean I feel likethat right there, was really like if
if we were to go out andpeople say like, Oh, yeah,
I watched the show, why shouldI listen to your podcast? That,
in a nutshell, is why youshould listen to the PODCAST, because we're
getting this information that we wouldn't,you wouldn't necessarily get from the show.
You're your hunch on psychoanalyzing that momentand being able to confirm that with somebody
is such a cool thing. Also, I'M gonna say my own personal triumph,
which I know is trivial compared tothat, but my own sort of
personal triumph here is that my safeword idea, as stupid as that idea
was, actually lead to US learningof a cut scene from the show.
How else are you going to figurethat? So that was amazing. Yeah,
I definitely felt like, okay,I have I have really accomplished something
here. I feel very proud ofmyself and I feel like I can officially
call myself a podcast host now thatwe've gotten a cut scene from the show
into our podcast. Wait, Lindsay, it just occurred. Something just occurred
to me that I can't believe.I hadn't thought of before these actors actually
got to at that really good food. Okay, right, okay, but
now do you know about actors andfood? Do you know how that normally
works? No, don't spoil itfor me. Okay, all right.
So, so the thing is isthat that seems like an awesome idea,
like the food looks great on theshow and you think like that looks delicious,
I would like some of that.And we even have a scene where,
I can't where Linda's character says,is there any more of that Pastizio?
It looks great, and and UmSteve CORRALL's character Alan Says No,
I ate at all. Like youhave every reason to believe that food is
delicious, but what you don't knowis that in the way that Um shows
are frequently shot, you know youhave to take multiple takes sometimes, you
know it can be many, manytakes of eating food. And so what
happens is there's something in the businessthat's called the bite and smile, and
that is an actor term, andwhat that term means is that like if
you ever watch a commercial and yousee somebody take a bite of something and
then they look at the camera andthey smile and they're like, oh,
it's so good. What you don'tknow is that as soon as the camera
shot ends of that shot, Um, that actor usually spits that food out
immediately into a bucket and does notactually eat it, um, because otherwise,
if they have to eat food takesby the twenty take, they're no
longer going to be able to evenaccurately represent that that food is tasty because
they will be physically ill from eatingfood. So chances are that they probably
tasted that food, but that theyprobably didn't eat that much of it because
they didn't want to get sick ofit. I mean, I hate to
say, it sounds little eating disorderedin nature, Um, and you totally
no. I. No. Okay, so maybe that's the goal of our
podcast, is just to ruin everything. We're going to completely no, no,
we're not gonna do that. JoyThe magic of the show. Okay,
okay, maybe not. All right. Yeah, so I I feel
like Um Linda also gave us someinsight into Steve Carrell, which was kind
of fun Um, and how exhaustingthe whole thing was for him to have
to, you know, like basicallyinhabit the character of Um Alan Um.
So hopefully we'll get to talk toSteve Carrell about that. Boy, I
hope. I mean, is thisthe part where we openly beg Steve Correll
to come on our show? Becauselet's do that. We we could do
Steve. If you're listening, andI'm positive you're not, Um, please
come on our show. We reallywant to talk to you and learn you're
experience. So call us, textus, email us, send, send
a pigeon, whatever you need.We're here for you. But also dom
now, John now, because Iwant to hear how he was able to
find again, like did he justgo into this thinking I'm just playing this
creepy guy and I'll hate him whileI'm doing it, you know? Or
did was he able to find somenugget in the character of, you know,
Sam, like he's a victim also, and maybe that was how he
was able to connect? We canonly we can only surmise until they come
on the show and tell us themselvesit's true. But that was the cool
part of talking to Linda is shewas able to give us a really full
picture of of her conflict of ofportraying this person who obviously understands that her
son is doing bad things and thatshe is on some level enabling it by
by refusing to turn him in.And yet because she has this twisted logic
of how she hopes he can getbetter. Um, she's come up with
this very complicated way to support herson, Um, through trying to get
him to seek out a therapist,albeit in the wrong way, by kidnapping
the therapist and changing him to abed. But but um, I thought
it was it's really interesting. Asan actor, you really do have to
come up with a way to beable to not just say, Oh,
this character is a hateful person,but on some level you have to be
able to understand what that character isgoing through, even if you may not
personally agree with it, um,or what's happening. and I wonder,
is that what it's like for yousometimes in in therapy sessions? Are you?
Are you doing that where you haveto try and identify with the person,
even though maybe in the back ofyour mind you're thinking like you're rolling
your eyes and thinking like, Jeez, I really wish this person could just
get their act together. I mean, Um, I think that. I
mean empathy is really key, right. So you know, Um, be
trying to find a way to youknow, Um, be in their shoes
right to understand it from their experience. So that's that's one of the avenues
into, you know, helping.It can be difficult if someone just continues
to make the same mistakes over andover and over again. You know,
Um, but you know, it'sstill it's not it's not going to help
if I'm not able to, youknow, meet them where they're at.
Basically, yeah, I mean,okay, so here's my question to you,
psychoanalyst, person. Um, whenyou're dealing with a person who is
clearly making bad choices, choices thatyou disagree with or choices that you can
see are harmful to them, Um, do you express that judgment or do
you hold it back and try tounderstand that judgment, understand their their predicular
well, I think it depends onhow long I've been seeing a person.
So if I've been seeing someone avery long time and we've had the same
conversation many, many times, theycontinue to make the same mistakes over and
over again, there might be apoint at which I say, you know,
we've been talking about this and I'vemade ABC d suggestion and at the
time you say, Oh, okay, I'll try that and then you don't,
and if this has happened over andover again, I might say I
think we're be at an impasse here, you know. So I will certainly
it's not going to help me ifI I and I'm not a softie.
I mean I hope I'm empathic.I think I'm empathic, but I I'm
kind of known for being really directwith people, you know, and forthcoming
and, you know, saying what'son my mind. I let people know,
you know, Um, if ifI think, you know, that
doesn't sound right to me, orsomething like that. So, yeah,
it's almost back to what are ourguests on our very first episode, Frank
Summer said when he said people wantthings to change but they don't want to
put in the effort. It reallysounds like a thing that comes up a
lot. Yeah, yeah, forsure. So I have a big I
have a big thing I want tojust Um, I like one more thing
that I want to talk about thatI didn't get to talk about when Linda
was on. So I want tomention it to you, Lindsay, because
there was that whole scene with Bethright Um when she, you know,
brings her guitar on stage and youknow, we have to assume that she
knew going in that this was notgoing to be very well accepted, right
that she's going to sing in frontof everybody because, you know, they
maybe even dating. She probably,you know, learned, learned some things
about, you know, being UmOrthodox. I'm guessing she knew already,
but she's very strong willed Beth.I don't know, though. I'm not
sure I agree with the premise thatshe knew that it was going to cause
that much of a scene. Ithink my interpretation of that moment is is
that character thought people might be Um, unsettled by it, but that it
would happen quickly and then it wouldand then people would move on and she'd
be able to exp breast herself inthe way that she wanted. I don't
think she thought people would leave andI don't think she thought it would be
as embarrassing as it clearly turns outto be for Poor Ezra, who just
wants it to be over. Imean like everything on his face clearly signals
like make this stop as soon aspossible. So I think I feel like
they're setting up this parallel with theMOMS, like this episode could have been
called, you know, mother,mother, mother, you know, which
is the thing that like Sam keptsaying, Um, like. So you
have this one mom, you know, played by Linda, who's enabling her
child, basically, you know,protecting him, which basically means enabling him.
And then you have this other momwho who pushes the boundaries, you
know, I mean she's she's powerlessto like, you know, she doesn't
really want, I think her so, to marry this woman or, you
know, it's my interpretation of that, or she has mixed feelings about it
at best. And then she,you know, she's still gonna do what
she think is think, what shethinks is right. You know, she
wants to sing her son and hisnew wife a love song, which is,
Um, what she's saying. She'ssaying doughty Lee, which is a
love song to him, her sonand his wife. So, so,
two. So there's just something Idon't I don't know what it is,
and maybe it's nothing, but Ifeel like it's this very interesting dichotomy of
the two mothers. It is veryinteresting. I I was very struck by
the artifacts Judaism. Part of it, only because I have I'm currently right
now, is we're recording this.I'm currently in San Diego, California,
working at the old globe theater ona brand new play called what we talk
about when we talk about Anne Frankby Nathan Anglerer, and the plot of
that play is to people, acouple of Jewish couple who are reformed Jews
live in Florida, are visited byformer best friends who have since moved to
Israel and become Orthodox Jews, andthey sort of have to work out how
their friendships sort of dissolved as aresult of one of them choosing to go
down one path of Judaism and anothercouple of choosing to go down a different
path. And so Um, tothose of us who are not necessarily Orthodox
Jews, are really easy for usto be like what, it's no big
deal, it's just a song.How bad could it be? You know,
like a woman performs a song andthat's pleasant and everything's fine. But
Um, but that stuff is takenvery, very seriously and Um, some
things are not easily forgiven and Ithink that that theme of the content of
forgiveness and letting go of the pastis a theme that we're going to see
over and over again for the restof the patient. That's right, that's
my prediction. That's an excellent prediction. Thank you. Thank you very much.
All Right, I think we've hitthe end of this. All right,
I'm excited. So Um. Thankyou all so much for joining us,
for psychoanalyzing the patient, and wewill see you next session.

LISTEN ON YOUR FAVORITE APP