Shaping Freedom With Lisane Basquiat : Relationship Betrayal: An Empowered Perspective

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Camille Tenerife is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in the Los Angeles area. She has experience working with a wide population but found her focus in helping professional women of color. Her passion comes from her experiences being biracial and the challenges that can arise from that. It was through these same experiences of meshing two worlds that fueled her dedication to serving those who have struggled with their identity and the traumas that come with bridging cultures.

Camille has training in CBT/DBT and has experience and training in trauma work, identity, depression, anxiety, and interpersonal relationships. She currently runs her own private practice in Los Angeles. Camille is devoted to learning about people’s journeys and how she can help in their healing. She believes in the body, mind, and spirit’s resiliency and ability to heal. Through therapy, Camille is committed to helping her clients achieve a deep understanding of themselves and rewrite their stories to create a different ending.

This week Lisane and Camille take a deeper dive into relationships, both romantic and relationships in general. They discuss taking accountability for ourselves and how we show up in relationships, examining what our role might be in a painful situation, and the idea that being willing to examine the role we’ve played when we get hurt does not invalidate the pain we feel. Some questions to consider: What is my responsibility in allowing the painful situation to continue? What is my responsibility in not noticing this painful situation earlier? Now that I’ve recognized a situation isn’t working for me, what am I going to do about it?

You can learn more about Camille at her website:  Connect with Camille on social media.  Instagram: @heal.with.camille Facebook:

Shaping Freedom With Lisane Basquiat
Welcome to Shaping Freedom where we teach you how to create the change you want so you are empowered to author a life story you love to read. I am your host, Lisane Basquiat. Each week I'll speak with inspirational leaders and we'll explore and share practical ways to create extraordinary life experiences!

Episode transcripts

Welcome to the shaping freedom with LuSan Bass gap podcast. This is your
host, Li Saan. So I'mreally excited you, guys and Dals,
because I had a there was anepisode that was recorded back in May.
It's called the girlfriend happy hour chat, and what I did during that conversation
was I got together with a bunchof my girlfriends and we got together to
have a conversation about all kinds ofthings. It was kind of like a
happy hour chat, and one ofthe topics that we talked about that of
course, always comes up whenever abunch of, you know, girlfriends get
together. I don't know what guysdo, but you know, I'm assuming
you do the same thing, iswe started talking about the topic of relationships
and it was a pretty lively conversationthat I really enjoyed because I just love
talking to my girlfriends, and wetalked about one of the topics that came
up was the topic of relationships wheresome of the behaviors in the other person
are behaviors that are less than ideal, and in that conversation we talked the
topic of narcissism came up and thatsent us down a a different path of
the conversation that I, quite frankly, got a little bit of flat four
and my position. I got alittle flat for my position and during that
conversation. And so a couple ofweeks ago or a few months ago,
I had a conversation and had thepleasure of chatting with my next guest about
the topic of corporate persona. Andmy next guest is a psychotherapist working in
the La area and who focuses alot of her work on the idea of
like of corporate persona. And sothat was the conversation. It was a
conversation of helping people who are navigatingthe corporate landscape to do so in a
way that also helps them to staytrue to the person that they are.
Well, after the conversation was over, I thought about this topic, about
this girlfriend happy hour chat, andI thought about the fact that I wanted
to close the loop on that conversationby addressing the concerns that a few people
had and reached out to me about, which was what they thought I was
saying about relationships and about in ourstatistic behavior. And so I won't give
it away here, but I doencourage you to go ahead and listen to
this conversation that I am having thisweek with Camille Tenerife. So, Camille,
you and I had a conversation afew weeks ago, maybe a couple
of months ago at this point,at the beginning of the summer. That's
correct. Yes, and I lovedchatting with you and we don't know each
other. We don't know each otheroutside of the couple of times that we
you know, the last time inthis time that we're having the opportunity to
chat, and one of the thingsthat I came up for me during our
last conversation was that I wanted youto have a conversation with my audience,
to chat about relationship things, toget a little to take a deeper dive
into relationships and Romain, and notjust romantic relationships, but relationships overall and
more specifically, about the the someunhealthy behavior patterns that people sometimes repeat.
And just to kind of set thisup in to bring some context to it,
there is an episode, and Idon't remember the episode number right now,
audience, but there is an episodethat we recorded several months ago that
I titled Girl Friend Chat, andthe purpose of that conversation was to talk
about relationships. You know, afew of my girlfriends and I got together
on this, you know, onthe podcast, and we just jammed out
about relationships and one of the topicsthat came up in that, during that
conversation, was the topic of Narcissism, and I made a comment during that
conversation that I got some flak fourthat I want to clarify now, and
the comment that I made was acomment about not focusing so much on narcissism
or that that's great. You knowthat a person's and narcissist, and what's
more important is focusing on the waysthat we're showing up and being in relationship,
and that got misconstrued, I think, as me saying that that's not
an issue, that that's not aproblem, and that I was almost making
that an insignificant thing, and Ijust wanted to in this conversation, clarify
that. That is not what Imeant at all, and what I was
saying is that it is one thingfor us to point our fingers at other
people and at their behaviors that couldvery well be Shitty, and it is
another and more productive thing to takea look at the ways that we're showing
up in relationship and so that isthe purpose of this conversation today. So
it's like a really long intro towelcome again my my new friend, Camille
Tenerife, who is a licensed therapistworking out of La and to welcome you
back to the shaping freedom podcast tochat about this very delicate topic of relationships.
Hi, thanks for having me back. I'm happy to be here.
I really enjoyed our previous conversation and, as I were giving that Intro,
I am just itching to share aton of feedback, yes, or thoughts
around all of this. But Ithink what's really important it was. I'm
glad that you were able to kindof have that long intro because it was
really important to maybe clarify and reallyjust have the courage to come back to
this conversation, even if it's alreadybeen critiqued one way or another. So
I'm glad that this, this spaceis here for for that. Yeah,
thank you. Thank you. So, you know, we were having this
conversation and I don't remember how wegot into this, but I think it
was after the conversation was over,our last Convo, and and I think
I just like you know what,Girl, do you want to have a
this is what happened right and I'dlove to circle back to this thing because
it is huge and my position andentire message and the reason why I found
a shaping freedom, and all ofthe tenets of shaping freedom are around helping
people to take one hundred percent accountabilityfor the world that they're in and and
I believe that we are so muchbetter and so much happier once we're willing
to take accountability for our own livesand for the world's for the world that
we are creating on the periphery ofthe person that we are. And part
of that is relationship. And soyou know, if you are on social
media or just in conversations, youknow I myself have been part of hundreds
of conversations with girl friends where we'retalking about something that happened, or even
male friends, where there's something thathappened, where it's like she sucked and
she did this thing and she hurtme this way, or he cheated on
me or he made me feel thisway or made me feel that way.
And there is the venting conversation thatsometimes we can enjoy having or where we
get some of the validation, youknow, that we sometimes want or desire.
And then there comes a point,I believe, where there needs to
be some accountability for what's happening inour lives. You know. Yeah,
so I wanted I wanted some supportfrom you and having that conversation and talking
a little bit about relationships. Andshure, I know the kind of things
that you're hearing and and and whatyour thoughts are on this topic of relationship.
And you know, we can dabblea little bit into the into narcissism
and what it means and all ofthat if that feels good to both of
us. And what I'd really likeis to have some conversation about accountability.
Sure, sure, I mean,I have the same conversations as a therapist
and in my personal life about relationships. Yeah, it again, no matter
what it is. It could berelationships with a romantic partner, but it
could also be family friendship, eitherin relationships out wow work, but colleagues
are your boss. So it reallydoes show up in and in our lives
and in conversations. Naturally. Ilike what you said about the accountability and
I think a good place to startis really talking about this. Having space
for everything that you had just sharedand what I mean by that. Is
True. A person can be whateverlabel you want to use it, you
know, kind of or use forit, narcissistic tendencies, they could be,
their behaviors might have hurt you orall of these things. And at
the same time, I think thatthere is also a part of that accountability
that you're talking about. Right,we can validate that somebody had cost you
pain and had hurt you and alsounderstand that what is looking at? What
is my role in this? What'smy partnering? Oftentimes I think people see
it as black and white or eitheror. It's either that person is wrong
and I'm hurt or you know,it's nothing. Is My fault, it's
all their fault. But the realityis both of us, for both of
the people in each party, couldbe responsible for the dynamic that's going on
or that came into play. Itdoesn't. It doesn't, I guess,
neglect or or invalidate the hurt thatyou've had if you start to look at
the accountability piece. Yeah, soI love yeah, and one thing the
prop that for me is I ofthat you refer to Vac inquiry into like
what's the role that I played inthis, and oftentimes people hear that and
they immediately start thinking again again,girlfriends, all the girl friends. We
start thinking about role that I playedin it. I didn't tell him to
go do blah blah blah, orher or you know, whatever the relationship
is. Role that I played inthat. I didn't ask my boss to
be a micromanager or to be rudeto me or whatever, or whatever those
circumstances are. And so can youexplain a little bit what you mean by
role in it, just because Iknow that as that's like a I hate
using this word, but I'm goingto use it. It's like a trigger
point for so many. Sure,right, like roll I played what I
do, I was like last womanon Earth, you know whateverly, yeah,
and I think that there is maybe, from what you've described, coming
from a place of blame, likeI'm blaming you for how another person behaved.
But the reality is there is thosetwo are independent of each other.
I mean we have our behaviors affecteverybody one way or another, and so
do other people. But when Iguess, when I say role in it,
it could be one of two ways. One is, what is my
responsibility in maybe allowing this to haveto continue? To happen. Maybe.
What was my responsibility in not noticingthis earlier? And that's not blame,
but also the other role in it. Of once I've already realized that this
is no longer healthy for me,what is my role into my next move,
in my next move, for forfor something that's related to my healing
and what's good for me at thatpoint. So it could be. Again,
I want to stress that it's notbecause of somebody else's that we are
weary in charge of somebody else's behaviors, because we have actually zero control over
that, over people's emotions, theirbehaviors or thoughts, but the only thing
that we have control over is ourour own, our own respects and emotion.
So that's what I mean by ourrole in it. Of One,
what am I doing to perpetuate this, whether that's sub conscious or conscious and
roll? And the next one iswhat is my role in it in the
context of now I know this information, what am I going to do with
it? Exactly, exactly, andI think I'll give my own example.
Right, so I was in arelationship with someone and there were some things
that happened in the relationship that reallywere about had not had less to do
with the way that I felt aboutthis man, acause I loved him deeply,
and more to do with where hewas, yeah, in his own
relationship with himself, and where hewas in his in the health of his
relationship with himself and his ability tobe in a healthy relationship with me,
or anyone else for that matter,right, because a lot of times we
take it personally well, like itis all about me. Well, in
fact, it's not right. Yes, and so during the course of this
particular relationship, and I can thinkof like all the Times that I've been
in the situation in my life,you know, professionally or others, where,
once I got past the well,that person did this and you know,
this boss did that. Once Igot past that, there was this
moment for me in this particular situation, I'll stay there, where, after
I got through repeating all the things, the terrible things that I could point
to, you know, you didthis, you did that, you did
this, you do that, Ihad this moment of realization, Camille,
and I remember I was like sittingon my bed and I was just sitting
there like in nothingness. Right,and what came up for me, and
it's just like kind of very gently, kind of made its way from the
core of my being and it waslike, you know, I'm really sorry,
Lisan, that I didn't listen.Right. And so what I realized
was that, while I had putfront and center the ways that this person
betrayed me through their behaviors, andI'm not diagnosing another person because it's not
my place to do that, whereI was able to list out, one,
two, three, all the waysof this person betrayed me, all
the things this person did, atthe end of the day I had been
speaking to myself all along and choosingto ignore. Yeah, myself, yeah,
and that little voice that was likegirl, know this shit. I
right, girl, what you doand you know. And then this conflict
on the inside, right, likeleave his ass, no, just way
to yeah, I think I canwork it out, like all those conversations
that people have when they're in anunhealthy relationship with themselves. Right. And
so, while I was able tosit there and lay out all the ways
that I had been not treated wellor the ways that this person's behavior had
impacted me, sure, at theend of the day, the person who
was the biggest betrayer of Lisan wasLisan. Yeah, because there was a
point in the relationship where I knewin my heart of hearts that this was
not the thing that needed to behappened, happening, this was not the
world that I needed to be livingin. And the truth of the matter,
the truth of the matter is thathad I, in that moment,
that very first time, said Yo, how's this? Love You, but
no, love you, but Igot a boundary and you're all up on
the other side into my space withthis boundary, and here's the thing.
You go and but get healthy.I care about you enough to really want
to be with you. Yeah,and you need to go and get healthy.
And then you know, and itdoesn't mean like leaving it hanging forever,
it doesn't mean that the doors alwaysopen. But it didn't. It
would have meant had that happened,it would have meant that he would not
have been placed in a position tocontinue to have these behaviors with me and
I wouldn't have been in a positionof continuing to have this long list of
Shit, Dumb Shit, right,that he did to make my life miserable.
Yes, yeah, right, UhHuh. And that just so,
that's so beautiful that you were ableto get to that place, and that
really just I yes, and tosay that it just speaks to that this
is all a process. You're anythingand everybody's on their own timeline when it
comes to these things, and aslong as you give yourself the space and
the time to really check in withwith yourself, was to check in with
ourselves, sometimes the answers will inevitablycome, and just as it did for
you. But it does take alittle bit of stepping away from a situation
to get some clarity. It's hardto see it when you're you're when you're
right in it. The way thatI kind of think about it sometimes is
watching a scary movie and, asyou're the audience, you're watching it and
you know, like, why won'tyou just run you on the opposite side
of it, or why what youjust bore? Are You walking? Yes,
what are you doing? It's notthat difficult. Why are you answering
the phone? Hurry? Yeah,yeah, but the person who's in it,
I mean I know that it's amovie, but is similar to that,
right, can't necessarily don't have thesame perspective as audience us. So
I think it's the same for peoplegoing through the difficult relationships or what's going
on whatever, with whatever's going onwith the situation, is that it is
a little bit more difficult to seethose things and to give yourself a little
bit more time to really understand what'shappening. And so that's the purpose of,
like I mentioned, we talked aboutthis last time, therapy and journaling
and self reflection and and getting feedbackfrom people who have your best interest at
heart. Right, those are reallyimportant key points. But to my point
earlier, just like you said,you know this. That was your role,
right. That was your role wasto be able to stop enabling this
behavior from from this previous partner,and also to say, Hey, this
is enough. I don't have tobe someone who's receiving the consequences of somebody
else's pain. Absolutely, and forme to stop enabling the behavior from myself
absolutely more important. For me,more importantly, like, you're not about
to sit here and act like thisis not going on and then blame this
and demonize other human being. Right, that's not what you're going to do.
This was my conversation with myself.And so for me, and again,
that is just one example, andrelationships are like we just love talk
and relationships. That's the only reasonthat I'm bringing that one example of but
that example, you know, inall areas of our life, even,
you know, for those of uswho are parents, it's the same thing.
It's like, why does this kid? I raised teenagers, and so
I know that there are many times, you know, during the course of
my raising teenagers, that I wouldsay things like, you know, why
does this one keep doing this thingover and over and over again? But
the real question is, why amI not sending a boundary right, right
and applying some consequences? And itdoesn't mean like harsh. You know,
this is a child, this isthis is, these are, you know,
these are people who are, youknow, part of my blood right.
So not the consequences of like,you know, going up against them
right, really sitting down and thinkingthrough this is something that's happening in my
life. That is not good forme. It's not good for this person,
this teenager, this boss, whoever. What am I going to do
about that? Yeah, and that'sso important, even if we take it
on on a grand, bigger scheme, it is so important because then it
teach it's an opportunity if the otherperson will take it to really teach like
hey, this is actually not okayand instead of walking around the world continuing
to hurt other people are not understandingtheir impact and other people when we actually
need other people. So it's thatback is really good because in it's just
strengthens the relationship that we will havemoving forward, if we choose to see
it that way. Absolutely it isactually beneficial for your in your in your
case, for your children, becauseit does it doesn't have to get into
a war situation later on in lifethat you are now teaching them, Hey,
this is how this is impacting me, this, this is it's not
okay, but it does help themrelate to other people moving forward, whether
that becomes in their personal relationships,romantic relationships, or the way that they
are ork whatever that maybe it's goingto be. It's going to come up
right or when they have their children, because this is like family legacy,
right. So it's like, howdo you what can we do to help
ourselves to be a cleaner vessel throughwhich we channel, yeah, the emotional
legacy of our for our family.You know, what can I do to
get clearer about the what I'm accountablefor and the areas that I need to
work on so that I can passsomething clean around to my children, Joseph
and Jessica, so that they canthen clean up whatever they need to clean
up in order to pass forward totheir children. Yes, and we know,
and there's science that backs up,how much were impacted and affected by
the way that we had to watchour parent, parent us and grandparents,
you know, all of our caregiversfor that matter. So it is impactful.
Even if we think that they're notwatching, they're absolutely watching. I
absolutely yes, yeah, and gettingprogrammed, yeah, yeah, without even
thinking about it right there. Yeah, making yeah, they're seeing. Absolutely.
I do want to share a littlebit about what you had talked about
with the narcism a little bit thereand again, just like you, I'm
not here to diagnose anyone that I'mnot seeing a mature in a better p
position to do it. Yes,so do it, but yeah, I
know. What I will say,though, is that, I think,
again, going back to that blackand white thinking, a lot of people
either classify somebody as a narcisists ornot. What's important to note is that
each and every one of us actuallyhad, we all have a narcissistic tendency
or trait. Yeah, but itdoesn't mean in the in the field of
mental health, typically when we diagnosesomeone or make it official in that sense,
there are a couple factors involved there. So that means maybe a list
of symptoms. If you're experiencing threeout of the seven, for example,
then that qualifies a diagnosis. Ormaybe if you're experience and experiencing something more
days in the week than not.So it's not as simple as Oh,
you exhibited this behavior and now youare a narcissist or you are depressed or
you have anxiety. I think thatit's important to note that we're human and
we're allowed to feel self for sometimes, and we're allowed to be jealous and
allowed to feel sad and upset,if without really having a rational reason for
it, but it doesn't necessarily meanthat we are there's a there's a diagnosis
there m so something important to note. So I think that was that's really
important. A lot of the Times, I think people want the diagnosis to
try and understand it makes sense,try to kind of wrap something in their
minds. It's really hard to makesense up of like, okay, I
can classify it to this one butit does come back to, regardless of
a diagnosis or not, it doescome back to asking yourself of what do
I what do I want here?What are my needs? What are my
nonnegotiables in a relationship? Are theycrossing these boundaries? Again, regardless of
what the other person is going through. Diagnosis is important for context, right,
but at the end of the daywe are in charge of taking care
of ourselves, and so it isimportant to be able to recognize some of
the things, whether we label itor not, that are actually already harming
us and though no longer good forus, and being able to say that's
enough another, I think, importantpeace to that is sometimes, I think
there's also the opposite end of it, meaning, and I see this with
a lot of people who are moreempaths and caregivers and maybe highly sensitive people,
of what could I have done?I wish I did something differently for
that person to not do this.So you and I are talking about one
end of it of what's my rolein it, what's my responsibility in it?
Right, but other people go onthe opposite end of it of like
I could have done this instead,then he wouldn't do this to me.
If I had done this instead,then she wouldn't have done this to me,
and so on and so forth.I think that's also important to knowledge,
because it is the huge spector.That's the Yes, absolutely, I'm
glad you brought that up. Yeah, and it does boil down to you
again that we are not responsible forsomebody else's emotions, behaviors and their thoughts.
I think important to stress a lotof the times to control piece.
If I wish I could have donethis, I could have done that is
coming from a place of again,exactly that wanting to get controlled into something
that is actually not in your falsesense of control, imagining what it would
be like if I had just donethings differently. Right, but I think
this is where some selfcompassion can comein and understand that, yeah, I
had nothing to do with that.Even if I did do something incorrectly,
someone treating me poorly isn't necessarily thequote unquote right thing to do. Please
stay tuned for more of my conversationwith Camille Tenerife after the break. And
so what do you suggest, youknow, because I love to talk about
the how right? Yeah, so, so, I mean, I don't
know if we you know, isthere like a list that says, you
know, a person does these tenthings. Sho's what it means. And
well, why do we go therefirst? And then I have thought,
yeah, I think that's different foreveryone. So I think I kind of
get what you're saying. Is kindof like what do you do once you've
gotten to understand that? You've goneto this realization? But I think first
and foremost is to really figure outwhat is important to me, what are,
like I mentioned earlier, your nonnegotiablesand when and what are your boundaries?
And when you have a hard timefiguring that out, go back to
your value system. Yeah, goback to what's really important to me as
a human being. And once yougo there you can kind of formulate what
your boundaries are, because what mineare are going to be different than yours,
different to salies and different to somebodyelse's. Yeah, so that's the
important piece. And so I thinkthe next thing would be getting a little
bit more curious about your emotional responses. So say, for example, that
one thing that your partner did oryour boss did or whoever had really impacted
you and hurt you, I wouldget curious with yourself first as to why
you may not always come to theanswer as to you know, may not
trace it to childhood or things ofthat sort, but as to why it
affected you and impacted you in thatway, and oftentimes it will give you
some clarity. That either one.Oh, that's a boundary I didn't know,
I didn't have. So I getto set that now and communicate that
with the other person. Yeah,or I didn't realize. That felt familiar,
like a previous relationship that I've hadand this is exactly what that person
did to me. And so itcan maybe I'm not healed from that just
yet or or whatever. It couldbe. Right, everyone's different, but
the way to understand it is toreally just go, go inward, to
do that inquiry, which is somethingthat so many people are so, you
know, some it's I don't wantto put that on people, but it
can be scary, very scary,which I think. Yeah, which I
think is why people like, well, Bob did. Let me tell you
about Bob. Ye, sorry forall the bombs. Oh, but it's
like, let me tell you allabout Bob, and we're not going to
talk about me. We're not goingto talk about the fact that Bob is
just Fred, that was sam thatwas tall exactly, that had the being,
maybe even one are your care teekersexactly exactly. So I don't want
to do that inquiry because that couldbe painful, you know, and so
I think that's part of the reasonwhy, you know, we are people
are so quick to kind of like, you know, look to, you
know, shove a quiz under someoneelse's nose to help them to diagnose themselves.
Yeah, it's hard, it reallyis. Yeah, we'll go their
entire lives without necessarily on meeting toor wanting to look at this. But
the consequence of that is really again, that passed down behaviors and the maybe
belief system and on to the nextgeneration and next generation, like you were
sharing a little bit of yeah,yeah, that's just an ID. Sequences
to it. Absolutely well, yeah, and I think there are consequences for
us and for the person, andwe have to be that's what boundary setting
it's about. Yes, right,like, okay, what are if this
happens? You know, what arethe consequences of this kind of behavior,
and also considering what the consequences areto you to in being with a person
that exhibits these kind of behaviors,sure, no, because again, I
know what, you know what Iwas a teenager, I used to read,
you know, all the mega likeCosmo, Cosopolitan, all these different
magazines. Yeah, yeah, thatall have the quizzes and all that are
to tell you how jacked up anotherperson is. Okay, yeah, like,
you know, do you think he'sBlah, Blah Blah, and then
you kind of go through it,you know, does he love you?
Like all kinds of things. Right, yeah, do it. And the
question that comes up for me evenin the conversations I have, and so
with my girlfriends that I've actually satdown and, you know, broke bread
with and clinked wineglasses with, youknow, it's like will have this conversation
about, well, this guy's thisand he's terrible and he's just a blah,
blah blah. And my question isa question that may send all the
route. It could be like myBrooklyn thing, but it's like so what
he's? You know, he's anawful person, he's a narcissist, maybe
he's of this, use of that. So what? You know, what
does that mean? Actually? AndI got that from having worked in corporate
and I had a senior leader whowould say that, you know, whenever
somebody came with a problem, youknow, his response would always be okay,
so what. Not In a badway, sure, just okay.
So now we know that this iswhat this person is doing, now we
know what this person's behaviors are,and now we know that you don't like
this person's behaviors. They don't write, you know, they don't align with
your values. So what what areyou going to do about it now,
right, you know, and thenthat's where you know, reaching out to
a therapist like yourself or, youknow, some kind of a personal growth
program like mine, or really gettinginto inquiry and into creating a space for
yourself to heal and to understand,to figure out what the so what actually
needs to be sure in order tokind of course correct back to or forward
to that way that you really wantto be living in, the behaviors that
you really want to have in yourlife. And and I think to add
on to that, in in thecontext of romantic relationships, for example,
it doesn't necessarily mean it's always goingto end up in leaving that person and
are ending up going to break up. It could also be again information to
say that, Oh yeah, likeI mentioned Earli just could be a boundary
or I'd love to talk to youabout this. And I think that these
arguments are opportunities for a deeper connection, because it helps the other person understand
you a little bit more and youget to understand the other person a little
bit more if you so both.Allow yourself to do that. And I
think with with programs like ours,the important piece before even the so what,
what's the action piece there, becauseI do believe that you have to
change your behaviors in order to changethe way that you feel. But maybe
as even acknowledging how we feel.First, it sucks that he or she
or they treated you that way.It's absolutely painful or frustrating and whatever other
emotion is there, and stay inthat space for us long, because we
yeah, not ruminate in it,because it could be unhelp unhealthy and not
helpful. But to just yeah that, if I were in that shoes,
I would feel the same exact wayand validation to a friend or someone that's
sharing this with you. Yeah,yeah, and then that or that's really
scarier, whatever that is, andsay, okay, now that we've gone
there, now what can we doto help befoward I think it's the it's
the humanness and all of us thatyou just kind of want to stay connected
and understood. Right, right,I agree. And in the absence of
other people, having that in Grovewith yourself. Yeah, correct, that's
where the selfcompassion comes in. Yeah, I don't it's not just validating validation
from other people. We could alsovalidate our own experiences. So one thing
I will share is that feelings arenot always facts. You know, emotions
are important. People who kind ofgo through like anxiety or fear of whatever
it is. It's not just becausewe feel fear, it doesn't mean that
we're in danger. Okay, justbecause we feel anxious, it doesn't necessarily
mean that something bad is happening.So we can validate our emotions and say,
okay, I'm feeling fear right now, that's okay, or I'm feeling
stressed from my relationship right now,but it doesn't necessarily mean we get to
predict what's going that the our predictionbased off our emotions is true. Absolutely.
Yeah, it's funny. You saidsomething before about like it not necessarily
meaning that you and that person haveto end the relationship and what that would
came up for me is, youknow, it really is. I think
sometimes we confuse showing up one hundredpercent in a relationship with showing up one
hundred percent on that person's behalf.HMM, you know. So I was
thinking. I dated someone recently andwe, you know, there was some
conversation about like fifty fifty, and, you know, showing up, the
difference between fifty and that and showingup one hundred percent, like each person
showing up one hundred percent in therelationship. And so, even if you're
in a situation where that other personhas these behaviors, you know, I
believe that we have a personal accountabilityand responsibility to show up one hundred percent
for the relationship. So that doesnot mean that showing up one hundred percent
means, you know, like weyou know sometimes, you know, that
do or die thing. That's notwhat that means. It doesn't mean I'm
showing up one hundred percent in therelationship and what that means is that you
can crap all over me. Yes, you know, and I'm here,
I'm your woman, I'm your man, yet treating me badly right. That
is a very different thing then showingup one hundred percent meaning your I'm checking
myself in this relationship. Yeah,I'm ensuring that I'm showing up in as
healthier way as I can for ourcombined relationship. Yeah, and allowing you
to live in your lane and meto live in my lane and I'm not
trying to hop over and like microcontrol your situation. Yeah, yeah,
right, because is what happens whenyou swerve into somebody's lane. You can
get into car accidents, like ABS, right, like, yeah, good.
So staying in your lane is reallyis healthy. And at the same
time that if you do show upfor the intention of changing another person's feelings,
to make them feel differently than theyare, it's robbing them of the
experience of what that specific emotion istrying to teach them, when that specific
situation is trying to teach them.Right, we can support and and love
and care for another person, butit's not for us to take that to
forward, for us to take thoseemotions away some of the otherwise. Yeah,
that that bleeds into dificuld codependency,which is a whole other topic.
Yes, which is a whole notherthing. that. Yeah, I love
that you you shared that this justshowing up for the relationship and part of
showing up a hundred percent for theirrelationship is taking care of yourself too.
Yeah, absolutely. So three tipsif a person were to be in a
situation where they're like, HMM,I don't know. Yeah, person's take
it a lot more room on thisbench than you know. They're knocking me
off the bench. It's all aboutthem. You have any tips for a
person in that situation? Yeah,I know you do. Yeah, the
first thing, I'm going to justecho what I had said a little bit
ago, was to get curious.Yeah, that is the first, first
piece. Sometimes when we as assumewhat something else is got with something about
what's going on it, sometimes itcan lead us into the I mean we're
storytellers as human being, so willcreate this narrative that may not necessarily be
exactly true. So a curious seethe second piece, would probably get vulnerable
and share that with whoever that isso to have a little bit of be
courage and bravery to say, Hey, that this actually doesn't feel good.
I don't have to have the answersor to solutions, but I just sharing
to you that my experience is notnecessarily the best right now. And then
the last piece is a personal reminderof that selfcompassion. I think it but
reminded me was what you shared alittle bit ago. Just because I show
up for another person, it doesn'tnecessarily mean that you get to be mean
to me or yell at me orwhatever it is. I'm not your punching
bag. So a reminder of justbecause somebody is going through a difficult time,
it does not give them the licenseto be mean to you. Right.
So setting some boundaries around that.So curiosity, get vulnerable and selfcompassion.
Love that. I wanted to sayone thing. I love the fact
that you talked about getting vulnerable,because I think what happens so often is
we're so afraid of being judged andwe're so afraid, especially those of us
who were like we're out here andwe're doing these huge things in the world
and we're like, you know,doing the thing right, yeah, and
who you know, it's a lotharder to share sometimes. You know that,
you know I'm doing all the thingsand you know I'm in the situation
that you know may not be thebest, and so it happens a lot
of times is that we can gointo isolation. You know it's and you
know, just to be isolated inour pain is so much more painful than
the very thing that we can beafraid of, which is judgment. And
so, you know, I justencourage people to, and I love that
you mentioned that, find someone thatyou trust. You know, sometimes that
is the first step, right,find someone that you trust and someone that
you can just bear what's going onto, because what that does is,
first of all, it engages yourcommunity and people that love you care about
you in your solution, just likethey're helping you with the solutions for all
the other stuff. Yeah, right, you're getting them the opportunity to show
up for you and secondly, itgives you the chance to engage them so
that you can see your situation alittle more clearly. Yeah, you know,
sitting there in our own heads runningaround. I know for me when
I'm running around up in here,sometimes it's like I'm telling a lot of
stories. Yeah, I can tellsome stories for real and exactly. Yeah,
and so I think that's so important. I'm glad you mentioned that,
because isolation, I think, issuch a painful thing and I've done it,
I've watched friends do it. Youknow, I have clients who have
done it and it's just always,you know, not the best way to
handle something. Yeah, I agreecompletely. I second that and I will
always second that. Is this andI share that in my first yeah,
it Edo's chat with you. Isthat. Yeah, unity is so,
it really is, really is,and the full. I would add a
fourth thing to yeah, that's okay, let's add it seriously, and that
is don't about taking things personally.Take, you know, don't take things
so personally. Understand that sometimes,when things happen, we believe that it's
really all about us, you know, and when in fact it has nothing
to do with you. I.Has Everything to do with what that person
situation is or where they are intheir journey, the kind of pain that
they're in, or whatever it isit's going on, and I think that,
you know, not taking things personallyand trying very hard not to be
defensive can really help us to seethings a lot more clearly and find a
way through, you know, tothe next chapter for ourselves. Absolutely,
I think that a lot of timeswe want to make it about us because
they want to control a situation,but their reality is it's not. In
an offensive way, is stud itreally just isn't. About. Yeah,
I love that fourthing. I'm gladyou added it. Yeah, and now,
if you have five more minutes,sure are, one more pleasure,
if that's okay. Okay. Sohere's my question. What do you suggest
for the girlfriend or the friend orthe family member who is sitting in observation
of something? So, what doyou suggest for the family member when your
family member, your friend, whoeverthe person is, comes to you?
Yeah, talk to you about what'shappening in a relationship that is not the
most healthy relationship for them. Yeah, I would start with asking for permission
and asking what the other person needs, so being able to say, do
you want me to be a listenerright now? Are you? Are you
open to receiving feedback? I actuallyhave some thoughts. Are you willing to
hear what I have to say andit gives the onus, on on the
other on that friend or or whoeverit is that you are talking to,
to really just check in and understand, for them to check in and understand
what's going on? Or am Ireally in a space to receive some feedback
right now? Or am I reallyneeding somebody to listen, because some communication
is there's a sender and a receiver. Right, if this person is not
necessarily ready to hear your feedback,that it could rupture a relationship. But
I think just that question. Youdon't have to figure it out for yourself,
you don't have to make these guesses. Just just ask if, Hey,
can you, do you have spacefor this right now, or what
do you need from me right now, right, right, right. So,
yeah, I would be and helpback, okay, and helping that
person just to have as being asafe space for that person. You know,
so often we have so many opinionsabout what other people should be doing
or should be feeling or yes,you know all of that, all the
stuff. Yeah, right, andit is. You know, if a
person is coming to you to vent, if a person is coming to you,
it's because they've been trust there andthey trust you enough to share this
very vulnerable part of their life experience. It's one thing to come and talk
about all the things that are goinggreat and it takes a lot of courage
and a voluability to come to peoplethat you trust with information about your life
experience that maybe you feel a littlebit of a shame, a little bit
of shame about. Sure, andso you know, I think it's important
to check yourself at the door ofthat conversation and understand that if a person
is coming to you to share andbear that part of their experience, they're
doing it because they trust you.Yeah, to do something with that trust,
right. And you just reminded meof one other thing that I want
to add. Yay, yeah,just this one piece of sometimes take moving
away from the context, you know, moving away from the story, moving
away from the narrative and dropping downto the feeling. Just imagine what this
person is going through. Emotions.Are they in pain? Are they frustrated?
Are they right there her? Orthere's jealousy, and sometimes it's easier
to relate to another person if youdrop down to the emotion, because we
have the know. It's not thatyou've always gone through the same experience as
as somebody has, but we haveall felt all the emotions at one point
in our lives. Yes, sogoing back to what was this person feel
like? It may not be about, you know, you have all these
opinions about what they think they shoulddo. Let's drop down to the feeling,
and it takes courage to do thattoo. It's on both sides,
on both exactly on both sides.Absolutely. Yeah, it's all about connection,
right, it is, it iswhat it boils down to. So,
Camille, thank you so much again. Yeah, US. Yeah,
thank you for your generosity, thankyou for your willingness to continue the conversation
and go down this you know,go through this other door. It's such
an important topic, I believe,and it's such a thing that's so many
people struggle with and you know,hearing the Wise Voice of someone who does
this, you know, this isyour thing, and I really really appreciate
your willingness to and generosity again,to share your perspective on helping people to
heal and to look at things adifferent way and to try, you know,
some new things, you know,you know, try something new.
Yes, yeah, if the thingthat you're doing now is not working,
that we gotta try something different.seriously. Yeah, seriously. Yeah.
Well, thank you for having me. I love having these conversations. Hopefully
there's some tidbits that people can takeaway, whether, yeah, just one
thing or many things. Yeah,and again, can you. How can
so? If you are a personwho is in this situation, in a
situation of struggling in any relationship,including a relationship in their professional life,
and especially if you are a personwho is, in parallel, navigating the
corporate landscape. You know, thenthat is the and I'm kind of speaking
to your turn. That's the personI want to talk to you exactly like
if you're dealing with that and thenyou're walking in the next day and your
boss is like look, yeah,yes, absolutely like a that person.
Perfectly right. So Camille Saner Refeis the person you want to talk to.
And you're working now. You you'rea license psychotherapist. That's in the
La area right. That's correct.Yeah, but it's everything is virtual right
now. I do see clients allover the state of California. So yes,
if you are wanted to maybe expanda little bit more on the things
that we have talked about, maybehow do I how do I set a
boundary? How do I even saythat? All of those things definitely visit
either my website. I have aton of blog posts on how to do
that. So that's okay, theversified therapy lacom and then I'm happy to
answer any other question. So everybody'sopen to sending me an email at Camille
at diversified therapy lacom. Absolutely andwe will have all that information in the
show notes. For you and Camille, you are wonderful. Thank you so
much than thanks so much