EPISODE 36: Relationship Betrayal: An Empowered Perspective

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Show Notes

Camille Tenerife is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in the Los Angeles area. She has experience working with a wide population but found her focus in helping professional women of color. Her passion comes from her experiences being biracial and the challenges that can arise from that. It was through these same experiences of meshing two worlds that fueled her dedication to serving those who have struggled with their identity and the traumas that come with bridging cultures.

Camille has training in CBT/DBT and has experience and training in trauma work, identity, depression, anxiety, and interpersonal relationships. She currently runs her own private practice in Los Angeles. Camille is devoted to learning about people’s journeys and how she can help in their healing. She believes in the body, mind, and spirit’s resiliency and ability to heal. Through therapy, Camille is committed to helping her clients achieve a deep understanding of themselves and rewrite their stories to create a different ending.

This week Lisane and Camille take a deeper dive into relationships, both romantic and relationships in general. They discuss taking accountability for ourselves and how we show up in relationships, examining what our role might be in a painful situation, and the idea that being willing to examine the role we’ve played when we get hurt does not invalidate the pain we feel. Some questions to consider: What is my responsibility in allowing the painful situation to continue? What is my responsibility in not noticing this painful situation earlier? Now that I’ve recognized a situation isn’t working for me, what am I going to do about it?

You can learn more about Camille at her website: https://www.diversifiedtherapyla.com/  Connect with Camille on social media.  Instagram: @heal.with.camille Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camilletenerifelmft

Transcript


Welcome to the shaping freedom with Lu
San Bass gap podcast. This is your

host, Li Saan. So I'm
really excited you, guys and Dals,

because I had a there was an
episode that was recorded back in May.

It's called the girlfriend happy hour chat, and what I did during that conversation

was I got together with a bunch
of my girlfriends and we got together to

have a conversation about all kinds of
things. It was kind of like a

happy hour chat, and one of
the topics that we talked about that of

course, always comes up whenever a
bunch of, you know, girlfriends get

together. I don't know what guys
do, but you know, I'm assuming

you do the same thing, is
we started talking about the topic of relationships

and it was a pretty lively conversation
that I really enjoyed because I just love

talking to my girlfriends, and we
talked about one of the topics that came

up was the topic of relationships where
some of the behaviors in the other person

are behaviors that are less than ideal, and in that conversation we talked the

topic of narcissism came up and that
sent us down a a different path of

the conversation that I, quite frankly, got a little bit of flat four

and my position. I got a
little flat for my position and during that

conversation. And so a couple of
weeks ago or a few months ago,

I had a conversation and had the
pleasure of chatting with my next guest about

the topic of corporate persona. And
my next guest is a psychotherapist working in

the La area and who focuses a
lot of her work on the idea of

like of corporate persona. And so
that was the conversation. It was a

conversation of helping people who are navigating
the corporate landscape to do so in a

way that also helps them to stay
true to the person that they are.

Well, after the conversation was over, I thought about this topic, about

this girlfriend happy hour chat, and
I thought about the fact that I wanted

to close the loop on that conversation
by addressing the concerns that a few people

had and reached out to me about, which was what they thought I was

saying about relationships and about in our
statistic behavior. And so I won't give

it away here, but I do
encourage you to go ahead and listen to

this conversation that I am having this
week with Camille Tenerife. So, Camille,

you and I had a conversation a
few weeks ago, maybe a couple

of months ago at this point,
at the beginning of the summer. That's

correct. Yes, and I loved
chatting with you and we don't know each

other. We don't know each other
outside of the couple of times that we

you know, the last time in
this time that we're having the opportunity to

chat, and one of the things
that I came up for me during our

last conversation was that I wanted you
to have a conversation with my audience,

to chat about relationship things, to
get a little to take a deeper dive

into relationships and Romain, and not
just romantic relationships, but relationships overall and

more specifically, about the the some
unhealthy behavior patterns that people sometimes repeat.

And just to kind of set this
up in to bring some context to it,

there is an episode, and I
don't remember the episode number right now,

audience, but there is an episode
that we recorded several months ago that

I titled Girl Friend Chat, and
the purpose of that conversation was to talk

about relationships. You know, a
few of my girlfriends and I got together

on this, you know, on
the podcast, and we just jammed out

about relationships and one of the topics
that came up in that, during that

conversation, was the topic of Narcissism, and I made a comment during that

conversation that I got some flak four
that I want to clarify now, and

the comment that I made was a
comment about not focusing so much on narcissism

or that that's great. You know
that a person's and narcissist, and what's

more important is focusing on the ways
that we're showing up and being in relationship,

and that got misconstrued, I think, as me saying that that's not

an issue, that that's not a
problem, and that I was almost making

that an insignificant thing, and I
just wanted to in this conversation, clarify

that. That is not what I
meant at all, and what I was

saying is that it is one thing
for us to point our fingers at other

people and at their behaviors that could
very well be Shitty, and it is

another and more productive thing to take
a look at the ways that we're showing

up in relationship and so that is
the purpose of this conversation today. So

it's like a really long intro to
welcome again my my new friend, Camille

Tenerife, who is a licensed therapist
working out of La and to welcome you

back to the shaping freedom podcast to
chat about this very delicate topic of relationships.

Hi, thanks for having me back. I'm happy to be here.

I really enjoyed our previous conversation and, as I were giving that Intro,

I am just itching to share a
ton of feedback, yes, or thoughts

around all of this. But I
think what's really important it was. I'm

glad that you were able to kind
of have that long intro because it was

really important to maybe clarify and really
just have the courage to come back to

this conversation, even if it's already
been critiqued one way or another. So

I'm glad that this, this space
is here for for that. Yeah,

thank you. Thank you. So, you know, we were having this

conversation and I don't remember how we
got into this, but I think it

was after the conversation was over,
our last Convo, and and I think

I just like you know what,
Girl, do you want to have a

this is what happened right and I'd
love to circle back to this thing because

it is huge and my position and
entire message and the reason why I found

a shaping freedom, and all of
the tenets of shaping freedom are around helping

people to take one hundred percent accountability
for the world that they're in and and

I believe that we are so much
better and so much happier once we're willing

to take accountability for our own lives
and for the world's for the world that

we are creating on the periphery of
the person that we are. And part

of that is relationship. And so
you know, if you are on social

media or just in conversations, you
know I myself have been part of hundreds

of conversations with girl friends where we're
talking about something that happened, or even

male friends, where there's something that
happened, where it's like she sucked and

she did this thing and she hurt
me this way, or he cheated on

me or he made me feel this
way or made me feel that way.

And there is the venting conversation that
sometimes we can enjoy having or where we

get some of the validation, you
know, that we sometimes want or desire.

And then there comes a point,
I believe, where there needs to

be some accountability for what's happening in
our lives. You know. Yeah,

so I wanted I wanted some support
from you and having that conversation and talking

a little bit about relationships. And
shure, I know the kind of things

that you're hearing and and and what
your thoughts are on this topic of relationship.

And you know, we can dabble
a little bit into the into narcissism

and what it means and all of
that if that feels good to both of

us. And what I'd really like
is to have some conversation about accountability.

Sure, sure, I mean,
I have the same conversations as a therapist

and in my personal life about relationships. Yeah, it again, no matter

what it is. It could be
relationships with a romantic partner, but it

could also be family friendship, either
in relationships out wow work, but colleagues

are your boss. So it really
does show up in and in our lives

and in conversations. Naturally. I
like what you said about the accountability and

I think a good place to start
is really talking about this. Having space

for everything that you had just shared
and what I mean by that. Is

True. A person can be whatever
label you want to use it, you

know, kind of or use for
it, narcissistic tendencies, they could be,

their behaviors might have hurt you or
all of these things. And at

the same time, I think that
there is also a part of that accountability

that you're talking about. Right,
we can validate that somebody had cost you

pain and had hurt you and also
understand that what is looking at? What

is my role in this? What's
my partnering? Oftentimes I think people see

it as black and white or either
or. It's either that person is wrong

and I'm hurt or you know,
it's nothing. Is My fault, it's

all their fault. But the reality
is both of us, for both of

the people in each party, could
be responsible for the dynamic that's going on

or that came into play. It
doesn't. It doesn't, I guess,

neglect or or invalidate the hurt that
you've had if you start to look at

the accountability piece. Yeah, so
I love yeah, and one thing the

prop that for me is I of
that you refer to Vac inquiry into like

what's the role that I played in
this, and oftentimes people hear that and

they immediately start thinking again again,
girlfriends, all the girl friends. We

start thinking about role that I played
in it. I didn't tell him to

go do blah blah blah, or
her or you know, whatever the relationship

is. Role that I played in
that. I didn't ask my boss to

be a micromanager or to be rude
to me or whatever, or whatever those

circumstances are. And so can you
explain a little bit what you mean by

role in it, just because I
know that as that's like a I hate

using this word, but I'm going
to use it. It's like a trigger

point for so many. Sure,
right, like roll I played what I

do, I was like last woman
on Earth, you know whateverly, yeah,

and I think that there is maybe, from what you've described, coming

from a place of blame, like
I'm blaming you for how another person behaved.

But the reality is there is those
two are independent of each other.

I mean we have our behaviors affect
everybody one way or another, and so

do other people. But when I
guess, when I say role in it,

it could be one of two ways. One is, what is my

responsibility in maybe allowing this to have
to continue? To happen. Maybe.

What was my responsibility in not noticing
this earlier? And that's not blame,

but also the other role in it. Of once I've already realized that this

is no longer healthy for me,
what is my role into my next move,

in my next move, for for
for something that's related to my healing

and what's good for me at that
point. So it could be. Again,

I want to stress that it's not
because of somebody else's that we are

weary in charge of somebody else's behaviors, because we have actually zero control over

that, over people's emotions, their
behaviors or thoughts, but the only thing

that we have control over is our
our own, our own respects and emotion.

So that's what I mean by our
role in it. Of One,

what am I doing to perpetuate this, whether that's sub conscious or conscious and

roll? And the next one is
what is my role in it in the

context of now I know this information, what am I going to do with

it? Exactly, exactly, and
I think I'll give my own example.

Right, so I was in a
relationship with someone and there were some things

that happened in the relationship that really
were about had not had less to do

with the way that I felt about
this man, acause I loved him deeply,

and more to do with where he
was, yeah, in his own

relationship with himself, and where he
was in his in the health of his

relationship with himself and his ability to
be in a healthy relationship with me,

or anyone else for that matter,
right, because a lot of times we

take it personally well, like it
is all about me. Well, in

fact, it's not right. Yes, and so during the course of this

particular relationship, and I can think
of like all the Times that I've been

in the situation in my life,
you know, professionally or others, where,

once I got past the well,
that person did this and you know,

this boss did that. Once I
got past that, there was this

moment for me in this particular situation, I'll stay there, where, after

I got through repeating all the things, the terrible things that I could point

to, you know, you did
this, you did that, you did

this, you do that, I
had this moment of realization, Camille,

and I remember I was like sitting
on my bed and I was just sitting

there like in nothingness. Right,
and what came up for me, and

it's just like kind of very gently, kind of made its way from the

core of my being and it was
like, you know, I'm really sorry,

Lisan, that I didn't listen.
Right. And so what I realized

was that, while I had put
front and center the ways that this person

betrayed me through their behaviors, and
I'm not diagnosing another person because it's not

my place to do that, where
I was able to list out, one,

two, three, all the ways
of this person betrayed me, all

the things this person did, at
the end of the day I had been

speaking to myself all along and choosing
to ignore. Yeah, myself, yeah,

and that little voice that was like
girl, know this shit. I

right, girl, what you do
and you know. And then this conflict

on the inside, right, like
leave his ass, no, just way

to yeah, I think I can
work it out, like all those conversations

that people have when they're in an
unhealthy relationship with themselves. Right. And

so, while I was able to
sit there and lay out all the ways

that I had been not treated well
or the ways that this person's behavior had

impacted me, sure, at the
end of the day, the person who

was the biggest betrayer of Lisan was
Lisan. Yeah, because there was a

point in the relationship where I knew
in my heart of hearts that this was

not the thing that needed to be
happened, happening, this was not the

world that I needed to be living
in. And the truth of the matter,

the truth of the matter is that
had I, in that moment,

that very first time, said Yo, how's this? Love You, but

no, love you, but I
got a boundary and you're all up on

the other side into my space with
this boundary, and here's the thing.

You go and but get healthy.
I care about you enough to really want

to be with you. Yeah,
and you need to go and get healthy.

And then you know, and it
doesn't mean like leaving it hanging forever,

it doesn't mean that the doors always
open. But it didn't. It

would have meant had that happened,
it would have meant that he would not

have been placed in a position to
continue to have these behaviors with me and

I wouldn't have been in a position
of continuing to have this long list of

Shit, Dumb Shit, right,
that he did to make my life miserable.

Yes, yeah, right, Uh
Huh. And that just so,

that's so beautiful that you were able
to get to that place, and that

really just I yes, and to
say that it just speaks to that this

is all a process. You're anything
and everybody's on their own timeline when it

comes to these things, and as
long as you give yourself the space and

the time to really check in with
with yourself, was to check in with

ourselves, sometimes the answers will inevitably
come, and just as it did for

you. But it does take a
little bit of stepping away from a situation

to get some clarity. It's hard
to see it when you're you're when you're

right in it. The way that
I kind of think about it sometimes is

watching a scary movie and, as
you're the audience, you're watching it and

you know, like, why won't
you just run you on the opposite side

of it, or why what you
just bore? Are You walking? Yes,

what are you doing? It's not
that difficult. Why are you answering

the phone? Hurry? Yeah,
yeah, but the person who's in it,

I mean I know that it's a
movie, but is similar to that,

right, can't necessarily don't have the
same perspective as audience us. So

I think it's the same for people
going through the difficult relationships or what's going

on whatever, with whatever's going on
with the situation, is that it is

a little bit more difficult to see
those things and to give yourself a little

bit more time to really understand what's
happening. And so that's the purpose of,

like I mentioned, we talked about
this last time, therapy and journaling

and self reflection and and getting feedback
from people who have your best interest at

heart. Right, those are really
important key points. But to my point

earlier, just like you said,
you know this. That was your role,

right. That was your role was
to be able to stop enabling this

behavior from from this previous partner,
and also to say, Hey, this

is enough. I don't have to
be someone who's receiving the consequences of somebody

else's pain. Absolutely, and for
me to stop enabling the behavior from myself

absolutely more important. For me,
more importantly, like, you're not about

to sit here and act like this
is not going on and then blame this

and demonize other human being. Right, that's not what you're going to do.

This was my conversation with myself.
And so for me, and again,

that is just one example, and
relationships are like we just love talk

and relationships. That's the only reason
that I'm bringing that one example of but

that example, you know, in
all areas of our life, even,

you know, for those of us
who are parents, it's the same thing.

It's like, why does this kid? I raised teenagers, and so

I know that there are many times, you know, during the course of

my raising teenagers, that I would
say things like, you know, why

does this one keep doing this thing
over and over and over again? But

the real question is, why am
I not sending a boundary right, right

and applying some consequences? And it
doesn't mean like harsh. You know,

this is a child, this is
this is, these are, you know,

these are people who are, you
know, part of my blood right.

So not the consequences of like,
you know, going up against them

right, really sitting down and thinking
through this is something that's happening in my

life. That is not good for
me. It's not good for this person,

this teenager, this boss, whoever. What am I going to do

about that? Yeah, and that's
so important, even if we take it

on on a grand, bigger scheme, it is so important because then it

teach it's an opportunity if the other
person will take it to really teach like

hey, this is actually not okay
and instead of walking around the world continuing

to hurt other people are not understanding
their impact and other people when we actually

need other people. So it's that
back is really good because in it's just

strengthens the relationship that we will have
moving forward, if we choose to see

it that way. Absolutely it is
actually beneficial for your in your in your

case, for your children, because
it does it doesn't have to get into

a war situation later on in life
that you are now teaching them, Hey,

this is how this is impacting me, this, this is it's not

okay, but it does help them
relate to other people moving forward, whether

that becomes in their personal relationships,
romantic relationships, or the way that they

are ork whatever that maybe it's going
to be. It's going to come up

right or when they have their children, because this is like family legacy,

right. So it's like, how
do you what can we do to help

ourselves to be a cleaner vessel through
which we channel, yeah, the emotional

legacy of our for our family.
You know, what can I do to

get clearer about the what I'm accountable
for and the areas that I need to

work on so that I can pass
something clean around to my children, Joseph

and Jessica, so that they can
then clean up whatever they need to clean

up in order to pass forward to
their children. Yes, and we know,

and there's science that backs up,
how much were impacted and affected by

the way that we had to watch
our parent, parent us and grandparents,

you know, all of our caregivers
for that matter. So it is impactful.

Even if we think that they're not
watching, they're absolutely watching. I

absolutely yes, yeah, and getting
programmed, yeah, yeah, without even

thinking about it right there. Yeah, making yeah, they're seeing. Absolutely.

I do want to share a little
bit about what you had talked about

with the narcism a little bit there
and again, just like you, I'm

not here to diagnose anyone that I'm
not seeing a mature in a better p

position to do it. Yes,
so do it, but yeah, I

know. What I will say,
though, is that, I think,

again, going back to that black
and white thinking, a lot of people

either classify somebody as a narcisists or
not. What's important to note is that

each and every one of us actually
had, we all have a narcissistic tendency

or trait. Yeah, but it
doesn't mean in the in the field of

mental health, typically when we diagnose
someone or make it official in that sense,

there are a couple factors involved there. So that means maybe a list

of symptoms. If you're experiencing three
out of the seven, for example,

then that qualifies a diagnosis. Or
maybe if you're experience and experiencing something more

days in the week than not.
So it's not as simple as Oh,

you exhibited this behavior and now you
are a narcissist or you are depressed or

you have anxiety. I think that
it's important to note that we're human and

we're allowed to feel self for sometimes, and we're allowed to be jealous and

allowed to feel sad and upset,
if without really having a rational reason for

it, but it doesn't necessarily mean
that we are there's a there's a diagnosis

there m so something important to note. So I think that was that's really

important. A lot of the Times, I think people want the diagnosis to

try and understand it makes sense,
try to kind of wrap something in their

minds. It's really hard to make
sense up of like, okay, I

can classify it to this one but
it does come back to, regardless of

a diagnosis or not, it does
come back to asking yourself of what do

I what do I want here?
What are my needs? What are my

nonnegotiables in a relationship? Are they
crossing these boundaries? Again, regardless of

what the other person is going through. Diagnosis is important for context, right,

but at the end of the day
we are in charge of taking care

of ourselves, and so it is
important to be able to recognize some of

the things, whether we label it
or not, that are actually already harming

us and though no longer good for
us, and being able to say that's

enough another, I think, important
peace to that is sometimes, I think

there's also the opposite end of it, meaning, and I see this with

a lot of people who are more
empaths and caregivers and maybe highly sensitive people,

of what could I have done?
I wish I did something differently for

that person to not do this.
So you and I are talking about one

end of it of what's my role
in it, what's my responsibility in it?

Right, but other people go on
the opposite end of it of like

I could have done this instead,
then he wouldn't do this to me.

If I had done this instead,
then she wouldn't have done this to me,

and so on and so forth.
I think that's also important to knowledge,

because it is the huge spector.
That's the Yes, absolutely, I'm

glad you brought that up. Yeah, and it does boil down to you

again that we are not responsible for
somebody else's emotions, behaviors and their thoughts.

I think important to stress a lot
of the times to control piece.

If I wish I could have done
this, I could have done that is

coming from a place of again,
exactly that wanting to get controlled into something

that is actually not in your false
sense of control, imagining what it would

be like if I had just done
things differently. Right, but I think

this is where some selfcompassion can come
in and understand that, yeah, I

had nothing to do with that.
Even if I did do something incorrectly,

someone treating me poorly isn't necessarily the
quote unquote right thing to do. Please

stay tuned for more of my conversation
with Camille Tenerife after the break. And

so what do you suggest, you
know, because I love to talk about

the how right? Yeah, so, so, I mean, I don't

know if we you know, is
there like a list that says, you

know, a person does these ten
things. Sho's what it means. And

well, why do we go there
first? And then I have thought,

yeah, I think that's different for
everyone. So I think I kind of

get what you're saying. Is kind
of like what do you do once you've

gotten to understand that? You've gone
to this realization? But I think first

and foremost is to really figure out
what is important to me, what are,

like I mentioned earlier, your nonnegotiables
and when and what are your boundaries?

And when you have a hard time
figuring that out, go back to

your value system. Yeah, go
back to what's really important to me as

a human being. And once you
go there you can kind of formulate what

your boundaries are, because what mine
are are going to be different than yours,

different to salies and different to somebody
else's. Yeah, so that's the

important piece. And so I think
the next thing would be getting a little

bit more curious about your emotional responses. So say, for example, that

one thing that your partner did or
your boss did or whoever had really impacted

you and hurt you, I would
get curious with yourself first as to why

you may not always come to the
answer as to you know, may not

trace it to childhood or things of
that sort, but as to why it

affected you and impacted you in that
way, and oftentimes it will give you

some clarity. That either one.
Oh, that's a boundary I didn't know,

I didn't have. So I get
to set that now and communicate that

with the other person. Yeah,
or I didn't realize. That felt familiar,

like a previous relationship that I've had
and this is exactly what that person

did to me. And so it
can maybe I'm not healed from that just

yet or or whatever. It could
be. Right, everyone's different, but

the way to understand it is to
really just go, go inward, to

do that inquiry, which is something
that so many people are so, you

know, some it's I don't want
to put that on people, but it

can be scary, very scary,
which I think. Yeah, which I

think is why people like, well, Bob did. Let me tell you

about Bob. Ye, sorry for
all the bombs. Oh, but it's

like, let me tell you all
about Bob, and we're not going to

talk about me. We're not going
to talk about the fact that Bob is

just Fred, that was sam that
was tall exactly, that had the being,

maybe even one are your care teekers
exactly exactly. So I don't want

to do that inquiry because that could
be painful, you know, and so

I think that's part of the reason
why, you know, we are people

are so quick to kind of like, you know, look to, you

know, shove a quiz under someone
else's nose to help them to diagnose themselves.

Yeah, it's hard, it really
is. Yeah, we'll go their

entire lives without necessarily on meeting to
or wanting to look at this. But

the consequence of that is really again, that passed down behaviors and the maybe

belief system and on to the next
generation and next generation, like you were

sharing a little bit of yeah,
yeah, that's just an ID. Sequences

to it. Absolutely well, yeah, and I think there are consequences for

us and for the person, and
we have to be that's what boundary setting

it's about. Yes, right,
like, okay, what are if this

happens? You know, what are
the consequences of this kind of behavior,

and also considering what the consequences are
to you to in being with a person

that exhibits these kind of behaviors,
sure, no, because again, I

know what, you know what I
was a teenager, I used to read,

you know, all the mega like
Cosmo, Cosopolitan, all these different

magazines. Yeah, yeah, that
all have the quizzes and all that are

to tell you how jacked up another
person is. Okay, yeah, like,

you know, do you think he's
Blah, Blah Blah, and then

you kind of go through it,
you know, does he love you?

Like all kinds of things. Right, yeah, do it. And the

question that comes up for me even
in the conversations I have, and so

with my girlfriends that I've actually sat
down and, you know, broke bread

with and clinked wineglasses with, you
know, it's like will have this conversation

about, well, this guy's this
and he's terrible and he's just a blah,

blah blah. And my question is
a question that may send all the

route. It could be like my
Brooklyn thing, but it's like so what

he's? You know, he's an
awful person, he's a narcissist, maybe

he's of this, use of that. So what? You know, what

does that mean? Actually? And
I got that from having worked in corporate

and I had a senior leader who
would say that, you know, whenever

somebody came with a problem, you
know, his response would always be okay,

so what. Not In a bad
way, sure, just okay.

So now we know that this is
what this person is doing, now we

know what this person's behaviors are,
and now we know that you don't like

this person's behaviors. They don't write, you know, they don't align with

your values. So what what are
you going to do about it now,

right, you know, and then
that's where you know, reaching out to

a therapist like yourself or, you
know, some kind of a personal growth

program like mine, or really getting
into inquiry and into creating a space for

yourself to heal and to understand,
to figure out what the so what actually

needs to be sure in order to
kind of course correct back to or forward

to that way that you really want
to be living in, the behaviors that

you really want to have in your
life. And and I think to add

on to that, in in the
context of romantic relationships, for example,

it doesn't necessarily mean it's always going
to end up in leaving that person and

are ending up going to break up. It could also be again information to

say that, Oh yeah, like
I mentioned Earli just could be a boundary

or I'd love to talk to you
about this. And I think that these

arguments are opportunities for a deeper connection, because it helps the other person understand

you a little bit more and you
get to understand the other person a little

bit more if you so both.
Allow yourself to do that. And I

think with with programs like ours,
the important piece before even the so what,

what's the action piece there, because
I do believe that you have to

change your behaviors in order to change
the way that you feel. But maybe

as even acknowledging how we feel.
First, it sucks that he or she

or they treated you that way.
It's absolutely painful or frustrating and whatever other

emotion is there, and stay in
that space for us long, because we

yeah, not ruminate in it,
because it could be unhelp unhealthy and not

helpful. But to just yeah that, if I were in that shoes,

I would feel the same exact way
and validation to a friend or someone that's

sharing this with you. Yeah,
yeah, and then that or that's really

scarier, whatever that is, and
say, okay, now that we've gone

there, now what can we do
to help befoward I think it's the it's

the humanness and all of us that
you just kind of want to stay connected

and understood. Right, right,
I agree. And in the absence of

other people, having that in Grove
with yourself. Yeah, correct, that's

where the selfcompassion comes in. Yeah, I don't it's not just validating validation

from other people. We could also
validate our own experiences. So one thing

I will share is that feelings are
not always facts. You know, emotions

are important. People who kind of
go through like anxiety or fear of whatever

it is. It's not just because
we feel fear, it doesn't mean that

we're in danger. Okay, just
because we feel anxious, it doesn't necessarily

mean that something bad is happening.
So we can validate our emotions and say,

okay, I'm feeling fear right now, that's okay, or I'm feeling

stressed from my relationship right now,
but it doesn't necessarily mean we get to

predict what's going that the our prediction
based off our emotions is true. Absolutely.

Yeah, it's funny. You said
something before about like it not necessarily

meaning that you and that person have
to end the relationship and what that would

came up for me is, you
know, it really is. I think

sometimes we confuse showing up one hundred
percent in a relationship with showing up one

hundred percent on that person's behalf.
HMM, you know. So I was

thinking. I dated someone recently and
we, you know, there was some

conversation about like fifty fifty, and, you know, showing up, the

difference between fifty and that and showing
up one hundred percent, like each person

showing up one hundred percent in the
relationship. And so, even if you're

in a situation where that other person
has these behaviors, you know, I

believe that we have a personal accountability
and responsibility to show up one hundred percent

for the relationship. So that does
not mean that showing up one hundred percent

means, you know, like we
you know sometimes, you know, that

do or die thing. That's not
what that means. It doesn't mean I'm

showing up one hundred percent in the
relationship and what that means is that you

can crap all over me. Yes, you know, and I'm here,

I'm your woman, I'm your man, yet treating me badly right. That

is a very different thing then showing
up one hundred percent meaning your I'm checking

myself in this relationship. Yeah,
I'm ensuring that I'm showing up in as

healthier way as I can for our
combined relationship. Yeah, and allowing you

to live in your lane and me
to live in my lane and I'm not

trying to hop over and like micro
control your situation. Yeah, yeah,

right, because is what happens when
you swerve into somebody's lane. You can

get into car accidents, like ABS, right, like, yeah, good.

So staying in your lane is really
is healthy. And at the same

time that if you do show up
for the intention of changing another person's feelings,

to make them feel differently than they
are, it's robbing them of the

experience of what that specific emotion is
trying to teach them, when that specific

situation is trying to teach them.
Right, we can support and and love

and care for another person, but
it's not for us to take that to

forward, for us to take those
emotions away some of the otherwise. Yeah,

that that bleeds into dificuld codependency,
which is a whole other topic.

Yes, which is a whole nother
thing. that. Yeah, I love

that you you shared that this just
showing up for the relationship and part of

showing up a hundred percent for their
relationship is taking care of yourself too.

Yeah, absolutely. So three tips
if a person were to be in a

situation where they're like, HMM,
I don't know. Yeah, person's take

it a lot more room on this
bench than you know. They're knocking me

off the bench. It's all about
them. You have any tips for a

person in that situation? Yeah,
I know you do. Yeah, the

first thing, I'm going to just
echo what I had said a little bit

ago, was to get curious.
Yeah, that is the first, first

piece. Sometimes when we as assume
what something else is got with something about

what's going on it, sometimes it
can lead us into the I mean we're

storytellers as human being, so will
create this narrative that may not necessarily be

exactly true. So a curious see
the second piece, would probably get vulnerable

and share that with whoever that is
so to have a little bit of be

courage and bravery to say, Hey, that this actually doesn't feel good.

I don't have to have the answers
or to solutions, but I just sharing

to you that my experience is not
necessarily the best right now. And then

the last piece is a personal reminder
of that selfcompassion. I think it but

reminded me was what you shared a
little bit ago. Just because I show

up for another person, it doesn't
necessarily mean that you get to be mean

to me or yell at me or
whatever it is. I'm not your punching

bag. So a reminder of just
because somebody is going through a difficult time,

it does not give them the license
to be mean to you. Right.

So setting some boundaries around that.
So curiosity, get vulnerable and selfcompassion.

Love that. I wanted to say
one thing. I love the fact

that you talked about getting vulnerable,
because I think what happens so often is

we're so afraid of being judged and
we're so afraid, especially those of us

who were like we're out here and
we're doing these huge things in the world

and we're like, you know,
doing the thing right, yeah, and

who you know, it's a lot
harder to share sometimes. You know that,

you know I'm doing all the things
and you know I'm in the situation

that you know may not be the
best, and so it happens a lot

of times is that we can go
into isolation. You know it's and you

know, just to be isolated in
our pain is so much more painful than

the very thing that we can be
afraid of, which is judgment. And

so, you know, I just
encourage people to, and I love that

you mentioned that, find someone that
you trust. You know, sometimes that

is the first step, right,
find someone that you trust and someone that

you can just bear what's going on
to, because what that does is,

first of all, it engages your
community and people that love you care about

you in your solution, just like
they're helping you with the solutions for all

the other stuff. Yeah, right, you're getting them the opportunity to show

up for you and secondly, it
gives you the chance to engage them so

that you can see your situation a
little more clearly. Yeah, you know,

sitting there in our own heads running
around. I know for me when

I'm running around up in here,
sometimes it's like I'm telling a lot of

stories. Yeah, I can tell
some stories for real and exactly. Yeah,

and so I think that's so important. I'm glad you mentioned that,

because isolation, I think, is
such a painful thing and I've done it,

I've watched friends do it. You
know, I have clients who have

done it and it's just always,
you know, not the best way to

handle something. Yeah, I agree
completely. I second that and I will

always second that. Is this and
I share that in my first yeah,

it Edo's chat with you. Is
that. Yeah, unity is so,

it really is, really is,
and the full. I would add a

fourth thing to yeah, that's okay, let's add it seriously, and that

is don't about taking things personally.
Take, you know, don't take things

so personally. Understand that sometimes,
when things happen, we believe that it's

really all about us, you know, and when in fact it has nothing

to do with you. I.
Has Everything to do with what that person

situation is or where they are in
their journey, the kind of pain that

they're in, or whatever it is
it's going on, and I think that,

you know, not taking things personally
and trying very hard not to be

defensive can really help us to see
things a lot more clearly and find a

way through, you know, to
the next chapter for ourselves. Absolutely,

I think that a lot of times
we want to make it about us because

they want to control a situation,
but their reality is it's not. In

an offensive way, is stud it
really just isn't. About. Yeah,

I love that fourthing. I'm glad
you added it. Yeah, and now,

if you have five more minutes,
sure are, one more pleasure,

if that's okay. Okay. So
here's my question. What do you suggest

for the girlfriend or the friend or
the family member who is sitting in observation

of something? So, what do
you suggest for the family member when your

family member, your friend, whoever
the person is, comes to you?

Yeah, talk to you about what's
happening in a relationship that is not the

most healthy relationship for them. Yeah, I would start with asking for permission

and asking what the other person needs, so being able to say, do

you want me to be a listener
right now? Are you? Are you

open to receiving feedback? I actually
have some thoughts. Are you willing to

hear what I have to say and
it gives the onus, on on the

other on that friend or or whoever
it is that you are talking to,

to really just check in and understand, for them to check in and understand

what's going on? Or am I
really in a space to receive some feedback

right now? Or am I really
needing somebody to listen, because some communication

is there's a sender and a receiver. Right, if this person is not

necessarily ready to hear your feedback,
that it could rupture a relationship. But

I think just that question. You
don't have to figure it out for yourself,

you don't have to make these guesses. Just just ask if, Hey,

can you, do you have space
for this right now, or what

do you need from me right now, right, right, right. So,

yeah, I would be and help
back, okay, and helping that

person just to have as being a
safe space for that person. You know,

so often we have so many opinions
about what other people should be doing

or should be feeling or yes,
you know all of that, all the

stuff. Yeah, right, and
it is. You know, if a

person is coming to you to vent, if a person is coming to you,

it's because they've been trust there and
they trust you enough to share this

very vulnerable part of their life experience. It's one thing to come and talk

about all the things that are going
great and it takes a lot of courage

and a voluability to come to people
that you trust with information about your life

experience that maybe you feel a little
bit of a shame, a little bit

of shame about. Sure, and
so you know, I think it's important

to check yourself at the door of
that conversation and understand that if a person

is coming to you to share and
bear that part of their experience, they're

doing it because they trust you.
Yeah, to do something with that trust,

right. And you just reminded me
of one other thing that I want

to add. Yay, yeah,
just this one piece of sometimes take moving

away from the context, you know, moving away from the story, moving

away from the narrative and dropping down
to the feeling. Just imagine what this

person is going through. Emotions.
Are they in pain? Are they frustrated?

Are they right there her? Or
there's jealousy, and sometimes it's easier

to relate to another person if you
drop down to the emotion, because we

have the know. It's not that
you've always gone through the same experience as

as somebody has, but we have
all felt all the emotions at one point

in our lives. Yes, so
going back to what was this person feel

like? It may not be about, you know, you have all these

opinions about what they think they should
do. Let's drop down to the feeling,

and it takes courage to do that
too. It's on both sides,

on both exactly on both sides.
Absolutely. Yeah, it's all about connection,

right, it is, it is
what it boils down to. So,

Camille, thank you so much again. Yeah, US. Yeah,

thank you for your generosity, thank
you for your willingness to continue the conversation

and go down this you know,
go through this other door. It's such

an important topic, I believe,
and it's such a thing that's so many

people struggle with and you know,
hearing the Wise Voice of someone who does

this, you know, this is
your thing, and I really really appreciate

your willingness to and generosity again,
to share your perspective on helping people to

heal and to look at things a
different way and to try, you know,

some new things, you know,
you know, try something new.

Yes, yeah, if the thing
that you're doing now is not working,

that we gotta try something different.
seriously. Yeah, seriously. Yeah.

Well, thank you for having me. I love having these conversations. Hopefully

there's some tidbits that people can take
away, whether, yeah, just one

thing or many things. Yeah,
and again, can you. How can

so? If you are a person
who is in this situation, in a

situation of struggling in any relationship,
including a relationship in their professional life,

and especially if you are a person
who is, in parallel, navigating the

corporate landscape. You know, then
that is the and I'm kind of speaking

to your turn. That's the person
I want to talk to you exactly like

if you're dealing with that and then
you're walking in the next day and your

boss is like look, yeah,
yes, absolutely like a that person.

Perfectly right. So Camille Saner Refe
is the person you want to talk to.

And you're working now. You you're
a license psychotherapist. That's in the

La area right. That's correct.
Yeah, but it's everything is virtual right

now. I do see clients all
over the state of California. So yes,

if you are wanted to maybe expand
a little bit more on the things

that we have talked about, maybe
how do I how do I set a

boundary? How do I even say
that? All of those things definitely visit

either my website. I have a
ton of blog posts on how to do

that. So that's okay, the
versified therapy lacom and then I'm happy to

answer any other question. So everybody's
open to sending me an email at Camille

at diversified therapy lacom. Absolutely and
we will have all that information in the

show notes. For you and Camille, you are wonderful. Thank you so

much than thanks so much
Shaping Freedom With Lisane Basquiat
Welcome to Shaping Freedom where we teach you how to create the change you want so you are empowered to author a life story you love to read. I am your host, Lisane B... View More

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