I'm Jason Harris. You're listening to
soul and science. Fast Forward Your Marketing

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Welcome to the PODCAST. Today I'm
joined by Bondo boat, Co founder of

lockstepth ventures. As one of the
youngest c suite executives at a fortune,

fifty company, bond it is worth
billion dollars, CPG brands, including Bondelie

and PepsiCo, before starting bonding ventures, a growth accelerator that helps businesses of

all shapes and sizes, achieved revenue
growth faster than they ever believe us.

Bondon has been responsible for some of
the most successful organization transformations and the rapid

growth some of the world's most loved
billion dollar brands, including Oreo. I'm

sure everyone's seen his work on Oreo, cadberry, Pepsi, definitely Gatorade and

fret away. During his time as
chief media officer Mondolouse International, bonding managed

over three billion dollars in medias bend, making the seventh largest media buyer in

the entire these hell brands like sour
patch kids become the fastest growing candy branded

the world. Found consistently at the
forefront of thinking and execution in innovation,

bondons recognizes one of the business hottest
stars and one of the industry's top mobile

marketings. He's been abducted in the
Advertising Hall of achievement. We can also

be found in this such as fortunes, forty under, forty fast companies,

a hundred most created people and business, Ebony's power, one hundred and the

internationalist, internationalist of the year.
Thanks for joining us, bond and.

We are excited to chat with you
and we are going to talk today about

an overall theme. Whenever I think
of you, I always think of if

you're not early, you're late.
So let's dive right in. Thanks for

joining me today. Well, Hey
man, thank you for having me.

I always like to start with before
you got there. How did you get

started in the world of marketing and
technology? When I was young, I

got lucky enough that my parents found
a way to get me in computer.

In fact, I had the first
twelve k Mac, one of the very

first ones off the line. Actually
oddly so. I kind of learned at

a young age. I kind of
use computers and did programming. I actually

started a magazine that went through the
New York City Public Schools when I was

twelve. It was called what Washington
night's action team. So I was always

into computers. Learned how to program
at a young age. But then I

kind of decided I was going to
do something more important in my life and

I was going to go into physics
and political science because I want to do

engineering law and that's what I went
to college for. But during college,

with my college roommate, we needed
some extra money, so we started a

web company. We did a bunch
of websites through the the Georda website,

the George Ashla working play. So
go runs through my mind. I ended

up falling in love with political philosophy. I was supposed to come out and

do a graduate program at Columbia.
I graduated. We sold that company in

College, which, you know,
what pennies on the dollar, and that

summer I decide to freelance program because
I'd nothing to do, figure to make

a little bit more money, and
I was at like Proxycom razorfish and I

went to a Internet party and there
was a vodka fountain in a shrimp boat

and I said this is the life
for me, and so I ended up

led. They had a independent which
was router Finn. At the time.

It's what still is, but ruter
Finn, and they wanted us to start

an interactive group, and so we
built routofinn interactive. And what was interesting

is in night what was that was
that a PR company. So they were

the largest independent PR agency at the
time. Tech for PR is different than

what we had built at routofin interactive. We had built a pure play interactive

group that went up against R GA
razorfish. What happened was all these guys

collapsed and we had done a lot
of pharmaceutical work. We were at one

point in time the largest crater or
pharmaceutical intranets in the world, which is

crazy, and so we picked up
all this work and so we ended up

becoming a pretty pure play interactive group
that happened to be attached to a PR

agency and that was great. The
best thing was my my boss didn't want

to travel. I traveled and pitched
around the world, opened up our San

Francisco what agency, our office,
our Asia Office, a Europe office at

a very young age. So I
had a chance to track. How old

were you at the time? I
Guess I was like twenty three, twenty

four D and twenty five. So
look, we built root of an interactive

I left there after seven years.
I loved it, every minute of it,

but I wanted to take the top
slot and I ended up going to

IPG, where I then was part
of the investment group, and so we

did like the first investment in my
hold code and to like facebook. But

I also ran Weber Sham wicks interactive
groups. I built Weber Sham Wicks Interactive

Group from twenty people to maybe two
hundred and eighty in the two years I

was there. And then I left
there because I th aw clients were too

dumb to buy good work and I
became a dumb client. So I went

over to Pepsi. But during that
time, even in PR, I tried

to create things I had never been
created. If you go to Asia you'll

hear a word called EPR, and
that actually we started at root or fin,

because the whole idea was okay.
If Google is the front of a

new stand, the singular goal for
a PR agency is to be in every

single magazine on a new stand.
So how can we create something that we

could get on every single search result
in Google? And at that time it

was like mom and pop. So
if you search for, like pariasis,

you get a bunch of mom and
pop blogs, maybe a couple of websites,

because these are early days. So
we built out all these content pieces

that we within pitch to these mom
and pop blogs that had no way to

build it, and we would get
our clients on all the front pages and

we called that our EPR strategy and
that we kind of traveled that around the

world. Anyway, that was before
Seo was really a thing. Having started

as an entrepreneur, starting different divisions
and departments and other agencies and then going

client side, what do you think
the biggest difference is from agency to clients?

You Shit Rolls Downhill Right, so
the agency get the the brunt of

it. But I used to treat
our group inside of both Pepsico and Mande

leads, because I always ran central
groups, you know, so it was

different than than actually running the core
brand, and so we always treated the

way we approach the world like an
agency. I think the most important thing

is that what comes from agency thinking, like I always think about pitches keep

you sharper than anything else in the
world. It's like napalm in the morning,

like you're constantly that's what I loved
about it. You're constantly on a

different industry, you're constantly thinking about
the problems differently because you're constantly faced with

those and so we would try to
do that. We would try to work

on as many brands as we could. We try to tackle as many different

challenges as we could. I think
that the difference is that you tend to

maybe work in a very focused area, but I think when you have global

rolls your you're operating very similarly how
you operate an agency. So my experience

on the client side, the only
difference is that you get invite it to

more parties. But yeah, that's
sure. And the variety pack of agency

life and you have like five days
to solve a problem because you have to

go present it. That does keep
you sharp. But but the way you've

set it up is you kind of
get a lot of different brands if you're

working in a centralized way right,
and I work almost the globe, so

I worked in multiple countries. So
there was never a dull moment. I

think the hardest thing for the global
roles is that you have to realize that

you're not command and control. But
in an agency you're not really command and

control. You're always an influence mode. You can't just make the decision.

You have to get other people to
believe that it's their decision or that they

believe it's the right decision, which
means you have to really have thought through

a lot of stuff and make sure
it's kind of bulletproof. So I think

that that kept as sharp as well. But what was interesting about the client

side is that the scale, if
you're operating at the kind of scale of

a pepsico and a mandolas like,
you can have the impact that you see

or you know you can get off
an airplane anywhere in the world and see

your work and that's something really,
really special, and you have the ability

to move the world forward. You
know, I think when I went over

to Pepsico, my singular goal was
to say yes to do the things that

we knew on the agency side the
client should be doing, so that there

could be a role model in the
market place, so that other brand marketers

who are or other agencies could point
to. The work that PepsiCo is doing

is the beacon of kind of I
wanted to be the leader in digital,

which meant that we have to take
a lot of risks and a lot of

chances, but we paved the way
for a lot of people to get a

lot of stuff done. Did you
find any friction when you went to maybe

more conservative client and the way they're
used to doing business and you kind of

come in with your entrepreneurial spirit when
you have to name places? But just

in general, what was that like? So this tension everywhere, there's always

friction like but I think it's a
couple of things. I think that you

got to focus on one. I
believe in the whack of Mole theory,

so I think you got to put
a lot of stuff into the market so

that people, you know, can't
kill it all because, like the immid

it thought is to kill innovation because
it doesn't look like what they know.

So if your focus on the only
one thing and you spent nine months doing

that and then all of a sudden
his killed, you just wasted nine months.

Right. So I tried to spin
a lot of plates, man like

you know, a lot of different
things and then the other thing is you

got to make sure that you find
you know, I talk about it as

collision of the willing, but even
if it's one person, you know,

on that idea, you got to
find the people. You can't get alignment.

I think that's the challenge. People
want to alignment. You can't even

get a lineman and like where to
sit people at things giving so to think

a hundred, tenzero organization is going
to get aligne and it's just crazy,

you know. But if you can
find the for the one or four people

that are going to walk barefoot with
you and turn this into a religion,

then you can win. And then
I think no idea is too small if

it has the opportunity directionally be big. Like if you want to go into

mobile, you can either try what
we got lucky as we shifted ten percent

and I put a big goal out
there, but we were much further along,

or you can get a couple of
wins on the board, which is

what we really did. If you
look at the journey of Oreo, Orel

started off where we were going to
do the same exact we did. Actually

a bunch of the same exact as
oreo twist. They can dunk Mommy Kid.

The challenge with that is that we
had reached every six to twelve year

old right everybody who owned a six
to twelve year old, and there was

no relevance on the top side.
So we couldn't grow. But it took

us to build wins, like we
had to win on that first social campaign,

then we had to win on the
twitter campaign. Then we know and

eventually we transform the whole business to
the point where by the time we got

three year is in, we were
accelerating that business so quickly. I mean

we launch personalized oreos in three months. Man. It was crazy because the

org had been on the journey with
us and they built the belief system and

a trust system. More importantly,
the organization built muscle memory. So the

organization used to think that it was
them and not even you know us.

The other piece I try to use
is I call it the Babe Ruth principle.

The thing that was beautiful about Babe
Ruth he will call his shots.

Most people like I don't want to
talk to the rest of the world until

I've accomplished something. I'm like,
no, dude, I'm going to call

the shot. In the funny thing
is he didn't hit all of the ones

he called, but when he did, people were like but more important he

told the world is what he was
going to do in the world expected him.

And so that when you tell the
external world, Hey, we're going

to reinvent the way that you know
digital shelving works, the rest of the

organization feels compelled to have to run
towards that because the world believes that that's

what they're going to accomplish. So
you used external pressure to drive internal change.

And then I think the last piece
is we tried to build mechanisms that

we called an entrepreneurship. I think
we coined it originally. Everybody uses an

now, but we tried to build
mechanisms like Pepsico, ten mobile futures that

put structure around innovation so that everybody
could be in the innovation game and have

guard rail so it didn't go off
the you know rail. So they felt

comfortable doing it, but at the
same time we were structuring for the highest

likelihood of successful return. I think
one of your greatest strengths is finding trends

early, like I remember four square
SMS Marketing Thriller, which we ended up

doing a partnership with you on and
we've heard you say it's that if it's

standardized, it's commoditized, and that
really means when you're waiting for something to

be standard and adopted, it's too
late to make a splash because everyone's already

on it. How you think about
finding trends and what passes the bonding test

for something that you're gonna go all
in on? There's a couple pieces.

One is you got to find a
way to have inputs, that constant inputs,

you know what I mean? Like
for me, the easiest way has

always been speaking, because what I'm
able to do is I come off stage

and everybody's got an idea for me, and so I'm hearing and like people

always like wow, you stood here
and listen to every single person. I'm

like, are you kidding me?
This is gold man like. They think

they're getting something for me. I'm
hearing exactly. So I get to hear

like where are the what are what
are the kind of common themes that are

breaking through? And then I think
there's a little bit of pattern recognition,

because you can say what you want. Marketers are going to find out they're

like roaches. Whatever space you think
is, say space, we're going to

infiltrate. Now the good news is
there's a lot of guard real so they're

going to do it in a very, you know, protected way. But

for me it's always jump in as
early as you can and ride the bull

because ultimately those that are their first
are ultimately going to usually have a better

shot at winning. Even when we
did the D printed Oreo, people like,

Oh my God, how did you
know? But D printing was already

big before I just decided to do
with food. It wasn't like you know,

but I saw the pattern recognition and
moved and moved early. So I

think that that's the real pieces.
You have to build that pattern recognition muscle

memory and then you got to build
a way to get high through put,

like how can you? That's why
the cees is and all those things.

The funny thing is with CS,
everybody goes there and they take the tours.

I can't wait until everybody leaves,
and it does last two days or

last day, and I walk all
the back of the floor, all the

tiny little boobs, all the guys
that are still around until the end because

they're just hoping somebody will buy their
their kind little innovation, because I want

to see all that stuff, and
I spend the whole day doing that,

the place where nobody's searching for stuff, where I'm looking for okay, what's

sitting in that next but to me
that's the way I put input, input,

input, input. So I think
that those are the two big pieces.

Even with that, you know,
look where nobody is looking. You

still have to filter the cream.
Tell me more about how you determine.

Like, this isn't your gut,
like you just know this thing's going to

pop. You can tell when you've
heard it. Like I've heard a permeation

of a lot of stuff before.
So if I've heard a permeation of it

and it and already I didn't think
that there was something quite there yet,

then you know, I'm kind of
like, okay, I get it.

It's a better widget, you know, it's a better horse, it's not

a car. Yeah, so how
do you you know, you've got your

hands and so many things. How
do you allocate where you're going to put

your time, money and effort?
And I know this is going to sound

Cliche, but I guess you get
to a point in your career where you're

like okay, what am I really
going to do next? Right, and

I think you everybody begins to kind
of think more maybe impact driven, but

I didn't really know that that was
even going to be a part of my

mindset. And then, of course
all the George Floyd stuff happened. But

two things that really happened in that
situation was we had just finished digitizing my

dad's work, half a million photographs. I had never been digitized in archived

and I used to stand in the
studio and I would look amongst this physical

body of work and I realized that
his work left the legacy in the world

and it part of my job is
to make sure that that legacy is out,

is known to the world, and
that's something that the gallery that we

are partnering with now is working on. But the whole idea of legacy like,

well, what am I going to
leave in the world? You know,

there's a lot of adage articles,
but you know what am I really

going to leave? And then post
George floor during that whole thing. Actually.

So you know, we have riots
that Thursday, things are are being

broken into and I'm sitting here on
Seventh Avenue and watching the protests and then

the next day things are burning and
I'm like, you know what, burn

it down because I haven't seen him
forty years. And I'm like, okay,

I'm being cynical. And in Sunday
a friends restaurant got broken into,

and so I'm like, okay,
we can't burn down have my dad's photos

in it. And then that Monday
we're tear gassing people at DC and I'm

just like, what is going black
squares? I'm like what? So I'm

sitting with my dad, who at
this time is ninety three years old,

and he said the same thing that
I kind of cynically said, but he

meant it. He said nothing ever
changes, and in the back of my

mind I was like, so this
is a hundred years almost this man has

been on this earth and in a
hundred years he still feels like nothing ever

changed. And so we end.
Look, there has been change, I

mean, but the biggest thing I
can do is try to dedicate some portion

of what I do to driving change. And I happen to get a phone

call from Michael Lobe, who said, Gott it, I want to make

some change. We got to do
something. So we sit and talk.

He's like look, I really want
to figure out a way to invest in

black founders and I said look,
I think what we got to do is,

if we create a fund, we
need to focus it on real systemic

issues. So lockstep was born and
ideas really to focus on founders that otherwise,

I don't have access to capital,
that are not the ones on the

coast but the ones in the middle, and that are focused on really four

issues criminal justice reform, financial literacy, education reform and healthcare outcomes. First

of all, a how do we
create economically viable businesses? And the great

thing about investing in entrepreneurs who otherwise
have not been invested in but have built

somewhat successful businesses is that they've been
able to find ways to grow despite having

no access to capital, but also
finding the businesses that are tackling problems like,

I use the example of Mikey likes
it. So Mikey, mikey's ice

cream. Some of you might know
it. I mean like beyonce Jane,

like I mean every it looks like
it's like every artist knows his ice cream.

He's done such an amazing job,
but his story is pretty simple.

He was formally incarcerated. He makes
a joke, because everybody talks about thinking

outside the box. I was just
trying to get out of the box.

And so he said, you know, when he came, when he when

he got back, nobody would hire
them. So he started an ice cream

shop and then we started second one
and then he realized that what he really

wanted to do was create ice cream
shops that were in areas where large prisons

are, so we could accomplish you
things. One so that he could give

people a job when they come out, so they could have some access to

some type of dollars, and then
the second piece would make sure that they

didn't go back to where they came
from an absolutely no resources. So really

what he's doing is attacking recidivism.
So we look at that business and say,

Hey, if we could turn that
into the Ben and Jerry's of this

generation, we might actually have impact
on recidivism in way that many of these

programs that are not driven by financial
returns can't continuously have and won't have at

scale like that's the one thing I
learned. So Lockstep is dedicated the solving

systomach issues by creating massively scalable,
highly returning businesses that tackle those issues,

and so for me that's the twenty
percent time. Right. I want to

look back and say, here's the
twenty companies that we help get off the

ground that had real impact on sy
stomach issues that are challenging, you know,

the community that I come from.
And then, you know, the

eighty percent time is really based on
building group black which many of you up

until recently, probably knew about my
my relationship to it as a cofounder,

but didn't realize that I am actually
an operational role. So you know just

the situation that was happening in media
where everybody was making commitments to invest in

Black Oh media, whether it's agencies
or the brands. And at the end

of the day, when you really
look at the Black Oh media landscape,

as we step back to look at
it, you realize that it's highly nascent

and there's about twenty five billion dollars
that is being committed, but there's less

than a billion dollars of inventory that's
actually there, and you begin to realize

that historically this is a category that
has been underinvested in, that has been

overpressure to have to, you know, deliver at lower cpms, to not

have access to the rooms, not
have access to technology, and so we

decided that we had to fix this
and group lacks soul. Mission is to

change the equitable ownership of media and
investment and really to invest in the pipeline

and grow the next generation of black
owned media companies. We see a world

where just because we're black owned doesn't
mean that we're black targeted. So we

believe a Viacom can own bet then
we should be able to own MTV.

We shouldn't have to limit ourselves to
only thirteen percent of the market place,

which we think is insanity, although
the market place right now has kind of

a little bit of a bias towards
that. And Right now, today we

are fifty fifty employees. We've been
operating for a year. I'm chief strategy

officer. We have a hundred fifty
members. I remember when we first start

our journey, while we have zero, I guess we had three, and

now we have a hundred fifty members
that are part of the collective. We

have held our own up fronts,
we partner meetings. I mean it's I've

never seen a business grow this fast. We have commitments that we've announced from

everybody from like PNG to group M
and these are multi hundred million dollar commitments

to invest over, you know,
the course of the next three to five

years to really change the landscape of
how we see the world. But I

think what we've done to build the
black owned ecosystem in the last twelve months,

I've never seen anything move at this
pace, of this scale and our

ambitions. We believe that we're going
to be the NBC, the Black Own

NBC of this generation and more than
anything is that we are also in the

business of bringing diverse voices into general
market at scale. And people always said,

and you've heard the adage, that
it's one thing to be in front

of the camera, it's another thing
to be behind the camera. Well,

the way I look at it,
it's another thing to own the camera because

at the end of the day,
those that own that are the ones that

actually make the decisions on the narratives
that are showcased, you know, to

society, and we know that those
narrative shape how society sees the world.

So I think the biggest legacy piece
that we can live leave is to create

a black owned media ecosystem and company
that rivals any of the major players in

the market place today that are also
allowing for diverse stories across all diversities ethnicities

to be told at the scale that
they deserve to be told, so that

we can begin to reshape the narrative
that's in the world today to make sure

that we have a more inclusive world
as we move forward. I love it.

I got goosebumps when we started talking
about it. I never heard you

so passionate about anything. What did
you learn when you did Cleveland Hustles?

What's something that you've learned from Lebron
James Working with him? You know what

I learned. So it's interesting.
What I learned from Lebron James is that

one person can have dramatic change on
the world. You know I mean?

I don't think people understand how much
he's going to change a generation of students

from his hometown. I mean the
fact that he said, look, I

will pay for college for every single
student who reaches, you know, whatever

x grade levels that are. He's
going to change the complexion and talk about

generational wealth, creation of the opportunity
at generational wealth. He singlehandedly is going

to do that and his combination in
powers, the role model and the ability

that to attract capital right and so
those, those two pieces, are huge.

So being able to do both of
those is how you can enact real

change. But I also learned small
businesses are the lifeblood of this country and,

quite frankly, of the world.
Not only are they the largest employer,

but they are the reason why our
kids are safe, especially while,

more importantly, not just small businesses
but storefronts. Those are the streets they

walk down. They change the tax
complexion, they change policing. That is

really what drives in the saddest thing
is a eighty percent of small business to

go out a business of the first
eighteen months because they don't have access to

capital and they don't know how to
grow. So here is the most important

engine of our economy, and yet
we haven't provided them the tools to make

sure that they can survive at a
greater clip and a greater scale. And

if we were to focus more on
that small business ecosystem, I think we

would see a totally different landscape.
Well, Lebroad be part of your current

and future venture. I mean,
you know they're only a phone call away

as always. All Right, I
love that. All right. So,

wrapping up here, do you think
marketing lives more in the heart or the

head, meaning do you make decisions
based on, you know, your spighty

sense, or do you make it
based on I got to see the numbers

in the data. I mean,
you said it before. Its Art and

science, right, but I think
that you know the art is in being

able to interpret the science. Some
of the smartest marketers that I know are

those, yeah, that look at
the data but trust their gut. I

also learned small steps. You can
make big leaps by doing small steps.

Say to the world what you're going
to do and then you're going to end

up having that external pressure will make
make the thing happen. Marketers are like

roaches. I've never heard that one
before. I liked it. Find the

I think using events and speaking to
find the fresh ideas in the ideas where

nobody's looking, because everyone's looking at
the next thing that's about a pop.

So you got to find the the
next, next thing that's going to bother

new, new, new, new, your you know, Lebron James,

one person can have dramatic change and
I love that your focus now on true

impact, not just saying at the
true impact and legacy. Two questions for

you, not marketing related. Who
are your role models? And what have

they taught you and how they influence
you? If so many role models,

I mean you learn something from everybody, and you know, I've been lucky

to have some of the best bosses
in the world. I learned a ton

from like Dana Anderson, for example. I've learned a ton from Gail Himan,

Cathy Michael, I mean all the
people who have worked I've learned a

ton from the people who I work
with. You know, I think right

now I'm really enjoying two things.
I'm enjoying as the collection for my dad

is getting put together. It's just
getting to learn even more about who he

was. You know, the biggest
thing about him was all the creativity in

the world was great, but he
was a craftsman like. He knew his

tools and he learned and appreciate the
craft of it and that allowed him to

create great things. And I think
sometimes we forget to take a moment and

how hard it is to actually learn
how to be good. You know,

we want to jump to that phase, but it's you know, I watched

my adage first role of film from
roll zero to roll tenzero or whatever it

is, and he would start off
he was trying to shoot people. Eventually

he did, right, but he
was too scared to shoot people. So

he would shoot like squirrels, and
the first squirrel you're like, okay,

so a squirrel, but by roll
like sixty, because all he did was

shoot squirrel after squirrel off to score. You like this is the best looking

fucking squirrel. He is master the
Squirrel. But yeah, mass or like

a lamp post, like and you
see throughout all of it, you see

him taking a thing that he needs
to learn and learn and literally focusing on

the crafts, and that's all he
ever talked about. The other thing,

other role model, and I know
this is going to sound weird, is

by the time I was old enough
to appreciate my mom FT, but my

mom was a very jaded person by
that time. They had separated, they

had their life was just hard by
the time I could appreciate my mom right,

and so we didn't really have the
best relationship, unfortunately, and I

always thought to myself I would have
a better relationship later on in life,

like I always thought my dad was
going to die first, then my mom,

but I would have time with my
mom, would figure it out,

we would get there. And it
didn't happen that way right life. Never

does. But my dad, my
mom was my dad's favorite model, and

so I want my mom was young, my mom was early S and I'm

watching my mom through the eyes of
my dad. I'm just seeing my mom

and how excited she was for the
world, and we have all these archives

of documents and writings of hers that
I've never seen and now I'm like reading

those. I'm just taking in like
how powerful my mom was and you know,

you begin to understand where you come
from, and so those right now

are kind of my two big role
model just learning who they are and understanding

where they are. So I can
also appreciate that as I try to make

my leap into parenthood. You know, I love this idea of learning where

you came from through artifacts. It's
so interesting to me. All right,

last question. Do you have a
favorite mantra or quote that guides you throughout,

you know, your journey? In
one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine,

I was interviewing for that rooter fin
job and Michael Schubert, who still

a good friend, creative director or
I'm in the waiting room outside of his

office and there is a Harvard Business
Review there and I didn't even know what

this was. I'm picking it up
and I'm reading it. This is the

old school one, when it used
to have the table of constists on the

outside. I'm like, Oh,
this is fascinating stuff. I didn't know.

So I stick this in my backpack
right and I'm like, okay,

do the interview. Don't know if
I'm gonna but I read this thing cover

to cover and I'm fascinated by it. And there's one quote. I read

an are and it was all around
what is leadership look like? And there

was a quote that said the mark
of a great number one is where their

number two goes to lead, and
I've always taken that with me, which

is true. Leaders make people who
are better than them, and so whenever

I think about have I accomplish anything, I always try to say, okay,

a how am I making my team
better than me? And then have

the people who I've had the chance
to work with have they gone on to

do better things than I have,
and I'm so proud that so many of

them have. So I feel like
I've done the best I could as a

leader. But that's the quote that
I always go back to, is make

sure that you do at ever you
can to make the people around you better

than you. Well, thank you
for sharing your encyclopedia like knowledge with us.

It's been amazing and I have to
say for you, I hope you

stay this sharp until you're ninety three. I hope it runs in the family.

You and are both been I'm just
hoping, I'll say, the sharp

until like two thousand and twenty three. But okay, thanks so much for

listening to soul in science and we'll
see you next week. Soul in science

is a mechanism podcast produced by the
amazing Frank Riscol, Ryan Tillingson, Tyler

Nielsen, Emma Swanson, and we'll
lead you blonsky. The show's edited by

Daniel Forever, the theme music by
Kyle Mary, and I'm your host,

Jason Harris.